3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive • Hacker News Board

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#11

Post by fusiongyro » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:23 AM UTC

res0nat0r wrote: post #8

awolf wrote: post #5

I hope that 3Taps follows through. This countersuit may help set a clearer precedent for who owns the data posted on public forums and what third party developers should be allowed to do with it. Earlier this year I was searching for an apartment in San Francisco. Craigslist was my only source for places to apply. The good apartments got snatched up pretty fast so I wanted a way to make sure I saw every listing that…

> a) People go to craigslist and create content about some aspect of their lives. They, as the original authors of the content, post it to craiglist with the intention that the general public can see it. Craigslist users only agreed to have their content displayed on the Craigslist site, not on any other random site on the Internet who wants to relist their posting without the users explicit permission.

Yes, but it's definitely true that they understand that to mean public, and it's almost certainly true that they would rather have more eyes than fewer. It sucks that that isn't a legally compelling argument and this guy will wind up being shut down though.

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#12

Post by awolf » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:27 AM UTC

res0nat0r wrote: post #8

awolf wrote: post #5

I hope that 3Taps follows through. This countersuit may help set a clearer precedent for who owns the data posted on public forums and what third party developers should be allowed to do with it. Earlier this year I was searching for an apartment in San Francisco. Craigslist was my only source for places to apply. The good apartments got snatched up pretty fast so I wanted a way to make sure I saw every listing that…

> a) People go to craigslist and create content about some aspect of their lives. They, as the original authors of the content, post it to craiglist with the intention that the general public can see it. Craigslist users only agreed to have their content displayed on the Craigslist site, not on any other random site on the Internet who wants to relist their posting without the users explicit permission.

I see what you're saying and that may technically be true.

I'm not really arguing the legality of the issue though. I'm just talking about the spirit of what the content authors were trying to accomplish which I believe is: have some random person on the internet see their post and, subsequently, arrive at some sort of mutually beneficial arrangement with that person.

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#13

Post by natrius » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:28 AM UTC

res0nat0r wrote: post #2

This is like scraping Amazons reviews since they are available via Google and claiming you can display that user submitted content how ever you like. I can't see 3Taps having much of any case here.

I don't know of any precedent that gives sites that accept user-generated content grounds to sue when their users' copyrights are violated. I would like to hear of one.

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#14

Post by simplesimpl3 » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:32 AM UTC

res0nat0r wrote: post #8

awolf wrote: post #5

I hope that 3Taps follows through. This countersuit may help set a clearer precedent for who owns the data posted on public forums and what third party developers should be allowed to do with it. Earlier this year I was searching for an apartment in San Francisco. Craigslist was my only source for places to apply. The good apartments got snatched up pretty fast so I wanted a way to make sure I saw every listing that…

> a) People go to craigslist and create content about some aspect of their lives. They, as the original authors of the content, post it to craiglist with the intention that the general public can see it. Craigslist users only agreed to have their content displayed on the Craigslist site, not on any other random site on the Internet who wants to relist their posting without the users explicit permission.

That was CL's big mistake. These sort of unreasonable licensing terms that users never read are exactly the kind courts refuse to enforce.

Maybe you just want CL to win? That's different from whether CL has a real chance of winning. This case is unlikely to go to trial. That's because CL has a lot to lose and 3Taps has very little to lose. Some believe the reason there are few lawsuits on these issues that are not settled out of court is because websites like CL are afraid of having a court decide on them. Why would they want to avoid having a court decide?

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#15

Post by res0nat0r » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:34 AM UTC

tiddchristopher wrote: post #6

res0nat0r wrote: post #2

This is like scraping Amazons reviews since they are available via Google and claiming you can display that user submitted content how ever you like. I can't see 3Taps having much of any case here.

It's not at all like that. The interesting thing seems to be the claim that Craigslist posts lack creativity, which Amazon reviews certainly do have. 3Taps is claiming the posts can't be protected by copyright, because you can't copyright facts. I think their case has merit.

Are 3Taps verifying by hand that every scraped post are only facts? I've seen some pretty creative CL posts. Also it's been mentioned that assemblages of facts can in fact be copyrighted. See the Farmers Almanac.

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#16

Post by pyre » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:34 AM UTC

res0nat0r wrote: post #8

awolf wrote: post #5

I hope that 3Taps follows through. This countersuit may help set a clearer precedent for who owns the data posted on public forums and what third party developers should be allowed to do with it. Earlier this year I was searching for an apartment in San Francisco. Craigslist was my only source for places to apply. The good apartments got snatched up pretty fast so I wanted a way to make sure I saw every listing that…

> a) People go to craigslist and create content about some aspect of their lives. They, as the original authors of the content, post it to craiglist with the intention that the general public can see it. Craigslist users only agreed to have their content displayed on the Craigslist site, not on any other random site on the Internet who wants to relist their posting without the users explicit permission.

I think you're talking in two directions here.

'any other random site on the Internet' is hardly the same as a single-purpose (native) app for making CraigsList listings easier to parse. I'm sure that most of the random Internet sites might not even be attributing the data back to CraigsList.

When it comes to apps like this, all Craigslist has to do to compete is make their UI for browsing/tracking listing better. If their interface was better, then people wouldn't feel the need to pay ~$3 for a separate app to browser their listings.

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#17

Post by mattmanser » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:40 AM UTC

res0nat0r wrote: post #8

awolf wrote: post #5

I hope that 3Taps follows through. This countersuit may help set a clearer precedent for who owns the data posted on public forums and what third party developers should be allowed to do with it. Earlier this year I was searching for an apartment in San Francisco. Craigslist was my only source for places to apply. The good apartments got snatched up pretty fast so I wanted a way to make sure I saw every listing that…

> a) People go to craigslist and create content about some aspect of their lives. They, as the original authors of the content, post it to craiglist with the intention that the general public can see it. Craigslist users only agreed to have their content displayed on the Craigslist site, not on any other random site on the Internet who wants to relist their posting without the users explicit permission.

I fundamentally disagree.

The users know CL is sharing it with the world and that's what the users expect. As the article says, CL is happy for search engines to access these. Just obviously not search engines that they don't like.

You don't get to pick and choose who accesses your website unless you put a password up. And if the content's not copyrightable...

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#18

Post by simplesimpl3 » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:42 AM UTC

awolf wrote: post #5

I hope that 3Taps follows through. This countersuit may help set a clearer precedent for who owns the data posted on public forums and what third party developers should be allowed to do with it. Earlier this year I was searching for an apartment in San Francisco. Craigslist was my only source for places to apply. The good apartments got snatched up pretty fast so I wanted a way to make sure I saw every listing that…

People should post their cease and desist letters from CL so others can see. I doubt you were the only person to receive one. Sometime when something doesn't seem right, it's because it isn't.

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#19

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:43 AM UTC

mattmanser wrote: post #17

res0nat0r wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a) People go to craigslist and create content about some aspect of their lives. They, as the original authors of the content, post it to craiglist with the intention that the general public can see it. Craigslist users only agreed to have their content displayed on the Craigslist site, not on any other random site on the Internet who wants to relist their posting without the users explicit permission.

I fundamentally disagree. The users know CL is sharing it with the world and that's what the users expect. As the article says, CL is happy for search engines to access these. Just obviously not search engines that they don't like. You don't get to pick and choose who accesses your website unless you put a password up. And if the content's not copyrightable...

[deleted]

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#20

Post by simplesimpl3 » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 1:49 AM UTC

natrius wrote: post #13

res0nat0r wrote: post #2

This is like scraping Amazons reviews since they are available via Google and claiming you can display that user submitted content how ever you like. I can't see 3Taps having much of any case here.

I don't know of any precedent that gives sites that accept user-generated content grounds to sue when their users' copyrights are violated. I would like to hear of one.

Seconded.

Certainly this issue has come up before. Maybe the fact there is no precedent tells us something? Who would benefit from keeping the issue undecided?