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One thing has been holding back the Middle East

thetimes.com

11–20 of 29 posts

Re: One thing has been holding back the Middle East

#11

This is all very good but like most articles written by Westerners ignorant of 19th and 20th-century history it completely forgoes the part where European colonialism did everything in its power to remove progressive governments, generate division amongst any clans that could have possibly aspired to modern identities, and sabotaged anyone who could have posed a thread to Western interests who, coincidentally, we som…

That argument is anticipated in the article.

Re: One thing has been holding back the Middle East

#12

This is all very good but like most articles written by Westerners ignorant of 19th and 20th-century history it completely forgoes the part where European colonialism did everything in its power to remove progressive governments, generate division amongst any clans that could have possibly aspired to modern identities, and sabotaged anyone who could have posed a thread to Western interests who, coincidentally, we som…

[deleted]

Re: One thing has been holding back the Middle East

#13
For a couple of centuries, the Arab world took the science that the Greeks had developed and advanced it considerably further. But then the Muslim theologian al Ghazali persuaded everyone that science was contrary to true religion, and so it was abandoned. The result was when modern science was born and then lead to the industrial revolution and enormous economic and military power, the Middle East never modernized.

Re: One thing has been holding back the Middle East

#14

This is all very good but like most articles written by Westerners ignorant of 19th and 20th-century history it completely forgoes the part where European colonialism did everything in its power to remove progressive governments, generate division amongst any clans that could have possibly aspired to modern identities, and sabotaged anyone who could have posed a thread to Western interests who, coincidentally, we som…

[deleted]

Re: One thing has been holding back the Middle East

#15
post #4

While this article focuses on the anti-science stance of fundamentalist Islam, I wonder if it isn't also an oblique reference to the current anti-science campaign in the U.S., and for the same basic reason, to stifle logical and critical thinking for church-state control.

I think it's hard to argue Trump is going for church-state control, when he never goes to church, practices no Christian virtues, and only ever talks about himself. The guy never partners with anyone; there are just subordinate loyalists and everyone else. There's no way Trump will let anyone apart from himself be in control.

Re: One thing has been holding back the Middle East

#16

subheading: "Religious fanaticism has been catastrophic for a region that was once the intellectual hub of the world" mirror: https://archive.ph/eW0m6

I have a Theory.

Before the advent of Islam in the 7th century AD, the area that is currently geographically named the "Middle East" basically consisted of different and well developed cultures spread out over Persia (Iran, Iraq etc.), The Levant (Israel, Jordan, Palestine, Syria etc.), North Africa (Egypt, Algeria etc.), Turkey and regions around the Mediterranean. They were all traveling/learning to/from the rest of the World and disseminating knowledge throughout their areas of commerce/influence. When Europe was backward in the doldrums under the anti-scientific/anti-knowledge influence of the Christian Church these pre-Islamic cultures collected, maintained and developed forgotten knowledge from Greek/Indian/Chinese/Other sources.

Then Islam happened and everything started going downhill slowly at first and then accelerating as Europe threw off the Christian Church's yoke and stepped into enlightenment thus increasing the knowledge gap. The so-called "Islamic Golden Age" is nothing more than these populations still preserving and developing knowledge in spite of Islam for a few generations when Islamic orthodoxy had not yet gained full ascendancy over the minds of these cultures. But once Islamic orthodoxy was imposed by the sword on the populations of these cultures, all striving towards scientific knowledge ceased and they were doomed, the results of which we see today.

Note that even after European Colonialism was thrown off, while other non-Islamic countries (notably India/China) have made great scientific progress, almost all current-day Islamic countries are going nowhere. Their record of scientific development, social reforms etc. is abysmal and they seem to not realize that it is their own belief system which is holding them back. Their only hope is to change Islam so it fits in better with the Modern World.

PS: Dr. Jamshed Uppal made a presentation with survey data across Islamic countries titled Are Muslim Attitudes Tuned For Economic Progress? (the data is a shocking and definitive no) but the video seems to have been removed from Youtube - https://theblackhole.pk/event/are-muslim-attitudes-tuned-for...

In this session, Dr. Jamshed Uppal explores how socio-religious attitudes and practices affect economic outcomes in Muslim majority countries. Drawing on World Values Survey data for 66 countries, he examines eight categories of attitudes that are conducive to economic growth, including attitude towards trust; towards government institutions; towards women; towards legal norms; towards markets; towards science; towards violence, and towards financial institutions. Through econometric techniques, he shows that religious values do significantly influence economic attitudes, with a milder degree of religiosity being growth conducive, but stronger forms of religiosity leading to growth retarding economic attitudes.

Re: One thing has been holding back the Middle East

#17
post #15
post #4

While this article focuses on the anti-science stance of fundamentalist Islam, I wonder if it isn't also an oblique reference to the current anti-science campaign in the U.S., and for the same basic reason, to stifle logical and critical thinking for church-state control.

I think it's hard to argue Trump is going for church-state control, when he never goes to church, practices no Christian virtues, and only ever talks about himself. The guy never partners with anyone; there are just subordinate loyalists and everyone else. There's no way Trump will let anyone apart from himself be in control.

I've said earlier: He has no philosophy, no beliefs, no religion. Only money counts, and power - power to garner more money and cover his crimes.

People believe in religion and various philosophical theories as an end. He uses them only as means. The believers do his heavy lifting and (surprise) everyone who is close to him or trusts him is betrayed in a matter of Scaramucci's.

He even betrayed his ... you know.

This is from (too) long observation.

Re: One thing has been holding back the Middle East

#18

subheading: "Religious fanaticism has been catastrophic for a region that was once the intellectual hub of the world" mirror: https://archive.ph/eW0m6

I have a Theory. Before the advent of Islam in the 7th century AD, the area that is currently geographically named the "Middle East" basically consisted of different and well developed cultures spread out over Persia (Iran, Iraq etc.), The Levant (Israel, Jordan, Palestine, Syria etc.), North Africa (Egypt, Algeria etc.), Turkey and regions around the Mediterranean. They were all traveling/learning to/from the rest o…

When do you think "Europe threw off the Christian Church's yoke"?

Re: One thing has been holding back the Middle East

#19

For a couple of centuries, the Arab world took the science that the Greeks had developed and advanced it considerably further. But then the Muslim theologian al Ghazali persuaded everyone that science was contrary to true religion, and so it was abandoned. The result was when modern science was born and then lead to the industrial revolution and enormous economic and military power, the Middle East never modernized.

[deleted]

Re: One thing has been holding back the Middle East

#20
post #2

It happens everywhere, not only in the middle east, not only with religion. People who crave control rise to the top, apply tight control to stay there, kill creativity in the process.

Monotheism has proven a devastatingly effective way to consolidate control in the ancient world through the medieval period.
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