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Senate report: Microsoft used loopholes to avoid billions in taxes

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Re: Senate report: Microsoft used loopholes to avoid billions in taxes

#11
The problem is that loopholes are largely monotonic.

Every loophole that exists was originally a political favor to some important constituency. There are always important constituencies seeking political favors, or embattled politicians or parties seeking new allies; so there will always be pressure to create new loopholes.

If a loophole's in danger of going away, its constituency will scream bloody murder. Republicans who vote to eliminate it will be painted as "raising taxes;" ever since Bush I promised not to raise taxes, raised taxes anyway, and then lost the White House, a lot of Republicans have been very afraid of this political attack. So there will always be pressure to avoid closing existing loopholes.

So loopholes are monotonic -- they can only increase over time.

The only way we could conceivably get out of this situation is if our tax code becomes so complex, everyone -- even the beneficiaries of the loopholes -- is angry and upset at the complexity and costs of paying, and decides to support throwing the whole thing out and starting fresh. This scenario probably requires a united government (same party controlling Presidency and both houses) which is willing to make the issue a priority. It's probably not going to happen in this year's election, unless a major event occurs between now and Election Day.

Re: Senate report: Microsoft used loopholes to avoid billions in taxes

#12
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"ban the behavior rather than the intent" I think this sums it up quite nicely. The intent, which is encouraged by all branches and is culturally engrained (I will retrieve citations if requested), is "reduce your taxes as low as possible". With the right advisors, corporations can do this very effectively. This should not be a surprise to anyone. They will pay less, much less. After all, that's what you encouraged t…

> reduce your taxes as low as possible It's not something that's "encouraged" or "culturally ingrained." It's simply a matter of lowering your costs.

If I track down a quote from a famous US Justice from the early 1900's where he says every American is expected to try to lower their taxes, would that cause you to reconsider your view?

Re: Senate report: Microsoft used loopholes to avoid billions in taxes

#13
Moving around intellectual property rather than than profits is very very old practice for tech companies. Why repatriate profits when you can use them for R&D spending outside the USA, where there may even also be an R&D tax credit!

Moving the intellectual property out of the USA, and then using that to make US sales from anther country is pretty ballsy though.

Re: Senate report: Microsoft used loopholes to avoid billions in taxes

#14
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> reduce your taxes as low as possible It's not something that's "encouraged" or "culturally ingrained." It's simply a matter of lowering your costs.

If I track down a quote from a famous US Justice from the early 1900's where he says every American is expected to try to lower their taxes, would that cause you to reconsider your view?

The "expectation" is merely because that's what any rational, self-interested person would do. I can't see how it's logically possible to escape that.

Re: Senate report: Microsoft used loopholes to avoid billions in taxes

#15

The use of the word "loopholes" indicates that Microsoft is complying with the law. The word "loopholes" also implies that Microsoft's actions aren't within the intent of the law, but the article provides no explanation on the intent of the law. So this article is an unfounded and unbalanced attack on Microsoft, no more interesting than saying "Microsoft is evil!".

I am curious about the senate committee choosing to single our Microsoft and HP in their attach, when there is ample evidence to suggest that so many other well known companies are engaging in similar practices. In 5 minutes, I came up with articles from major papers documenting 3 of the biggest companies in the US using similar practices...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/business/apples-tax-strate... http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-21/google-2-4-rate-sho... http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/apr/04/amazon-tax-...

Re: Senate report: Microsoft used loopholes to avoid billions in taxes

#16

A new congressional investigation claims Microsoft has been able to avoid paying $6.5-billion in taxes since 2009 thanks to the complicated tax structure in the U.S. The role of a CFO (and his office) is to do exactly what resulted above. Build a team of accountants, lawyers, and financial analysts that makes sure that the financial health of the company is strong. "Is this a tax credit we can take advantage of, do i…

> why is this even an issue?

Because the Democrats want to press home the message that corporations and wealth are inherently evil in this election cycle, and the chairman of the committee quoted in the article is a Democrat, as the article mentions, twice.

An unfortunately large percentage of the US population apparently isn't capable of formulating the good and simple question in the last sentence of your post -- a large enough percentage that the story can attract enough eyeballs to justify its publication.

Re: Senate report: Microsoft used loopholes to avoid billions in taxes

#17
Every once in a while, a publication will run something like this about major companies [1][2]. It seems to be standard practice among large corporations. As a company, if you are allowed to save large amounts of money by using existing loopholes (read: things that are within the scope of the law), wouldn't you be silly not to?

[1]http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_44/b42010431...

[2]http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/29/business/apples-tax-strate...

[Disclaimer: I work for Microsoft]

Re: Senate report: Microsoft used loopholes to avoid billions in taxes

#18

Every once in a while, a publication will run something like this about major companies [1][2]. It seems to be standard practice among large corporations. As a company, if you are allowed to save large amounts of money by using existing loopholes (read: things that are within the scope of the law), wouldn't you be silly not to? [1] http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_44/b42010431... [2] http://www.nytimes…

If you work for a public firm and know that the 'loophole' exists, I wonder if share holders could take action against you if you did NOT utilize it.

Re: Senate report: Microsoft used loopholes to avoid billions in taxes

#19

A new congressional investigation claims Microsoft has been able to avoid paying $6.5-billion in taxes since 2009 thanks to the complicated tax structure in the U.S. The role of a CFO (and his office) is to do exactly what resulted above. Build a team of accountants, lawyers, and financial analysts that makes sure that the financial health of the company is strong. "Is this a tax credit we can take advantage of, do i…

The role of a CFO (and his office) is to do exactly what resulted above.

And the role of Congress and its tax committees is to take note when they've left open obviously abused loopholes and close or limit them.

This Puerto Rico scheme has been going on since well before 2009 and more companies than just Microsoft have been abusing it. The Senate Finance Committee and the Ways And Means Committee have been well aware for many years before that.

Someone here is cheating. It's not the corporations that take advantage of a loophole that is legal even though it is unfair and harmful to the nation. The cheaters are the lazy and corrupt congressmen and senators that watch it happen and read their reports every year, year after year, and can't rouse themselves to do anything about it.

Lucky for you, you get to fire some of them six weeks from now.

Re: Senate report: Microsoft used loopholes to avoid billions in taxes

#20
post #8

Firstly there are some simple issues that most international companies are very tax "efficient" - paying their alloyed fair share would drive most of the Fortune 500 into the red this year I am not saying that's a bad thing but it is a hard thing Secondly allocation of resources is soluble. - one example would be an international agreement to pool all taxes and share out to countries in proportion to employees per co…

What are you basing your assertion that most fortune 500 would be in the red on ? Corporate profit (post tax) are at a record high (e.g. http://elidourado.com/blog/the-short-run-is-short/ ).

Partly poetic license - my apologies.

The nearest I can find is http://www.uspirg.org/reports/usp/representation-without-tax... citing 18% paid on expected taxes of 35%. Which makes an extra 220 bn - almost double.

Given that the avg net margin is 6.3% (see below) doubling the effective tax rate would cause significant issues - but I need more data

Plus 1 for calling me out http://seekingalpha.com/article/428181-debunking-s-p-500-p

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