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Microcomputers – The Second Wave: Toward a Mass Market

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Re: Microcomputers – The Second Wave: Toward a Mass Market

#11

Post by Supernaut »

zoeysmithe wrote: post #9
K0balt wrote: post #4

It’s truly remarkable to me that in the late 70s/early 80s it was considered that programming your own computer in basic was not something that required special skills or technical ability. It just goes to show how far out expectations have dropped, with basic human ingenuity and capability for expression having been crippled by reliance on increasingly advanced automation with increasingly simple interfaces. Humanit…

I was little little during this time and the percent of adults that owned computers was tiny and the percent who could program them was even tinier. I think its very easy to fall for "le wrong generation" narratives because they are so ego pleasing to think things only got this way recently. That people are somehow magically 'dumbed down' now. When instead its always been like this. That certain types of people do ce…

> its always been like this. That certain types of people do certain things and others are highly disinterested in it

I agree. I remember 1984, when all of my schoolyard peers had a home computer. It was only myself and one other guy that ever experimented with our systems' integrated BASIC. Everyone else exclusively used their computers for gaming. Unsurprisingly, the other programmer and I are the only two who subsequently made careers in IT.

Re: Microcomputers – The Second Wave: Toward a Mass Market

#12

Post by Cthulhu_ »

K0balt wrote: post #4

It’s truly remarkable to me that in the late 70s/early 80s it was considered that programming your own computer in basic was not something that required special skills or technical ability. It just goes to show how far out expectations have dropped, with basic human ingenuity and capability for expression having been crippled by reliance on increasingly advanced automation with increasingly simple interfaces. Humanit…

And yet, people struggle; I read a post earlier about someone who tried to get elderly people onboarded with their iDevices, and they couldn't make heads or tails from it, already struggling with the PIN input. Mind you I'm sure they would've struggled with basic and everything in between too.

Re: Microcomputers – The Second Wave: Toward a Mass Market

#13

Post by dspillett »

iberator wrote: post #10

I never used or even seen those computers, yet from pure curiosity I picked up 6502 CPU(Apple 2, Commodore 64, NES) assembly as a hobby project. Its surprisingly easy, even for dumb person like me. Great learning tool if you dream of building your own CPU architecture:) Try it!

> yet from pure curiosity I picked up 6502 CPU(Apple 2, Commodore 64, NES) assembly as a hobby project.

I cut my programming teeth on an Acorn Electron (a somewhat cut-down BBC Micro) then later a Master128. The fact that the BASIC ROM included a decent multi-pass assembler was great for learning the deeper workings of the machine and such things in general. Being able to easily mix BASIC and assembly provided good lessons wrt choosing where optimisations were worth bothering with and where you should just stick with BASIC to save dev time. Those machines were also based around variants of the 6502.

Re: Microcomputers – The Second Wave: Toward a Mass Market

#14

Post by jnaina »

Surprised the Atari 8-bit series was left out. It was arguably one of the first home computers designed with an appliance-like philosophy, rather than the typical open, hobbyist-oriented design of its time. Features like ROM cartridges, the Atari SIO serial bus (which even influenced the design of USB), multiple joystick ports that doubled as input for external switches or sensors, and support for smart peripherals like disk drives and drawing tablets set it apart.

I still have my Atari 800 — it was my first real step into learning 6502 machine language.

Re: Microcomputers – The Second Wave: Toward a Mass Market

#15

Post by MomsAVoxell »

There is a .. "new Wave" (?) .. happening around microcomputers associated with that era .. in the modern context. I think the reason this article has impact, is that this 'new Wave' of microcomputers is tangible, visible, and not just on the horizon but happening every single day, in a kind of quiet revolution/resurgence of platforms once considered 'outdated', suddenly becoming relevant again.

You can still use these machines - this holy trinity of computers still get regular software made for them - and as platforms, there is a resurgence happening.

The ZX Spectrum Next. The myriad FPGA-based consoles that allow full access to entire "retired architectures". The Apollo A6000 'next-gen Amiga' .. all of these new 'hobbyist systems' fulfil the original need that the 'trinity' systems proposed. There are, literally, hundreds of different ways to get a modern reproduction of the 'second wave' systems.

So I imagine a day, in the not too distant future, that really useful applications are released for the 'next-gen 8-bit hobby microcomputer' systems. Put a well-fitted Apple II environment in a wrist-watch, and watch the devs arrive .. ;)

By way of example, I have in my (admittedly extensive) retro computing collection, an Oric-1/Atmos system that was used consistently, every single week for 40 years, to record motorbike club membership details, statistics, visit logs, and so on. For 40 years that system was doing its job as an on-site membership database and fuel log. That it was offline and only physically accessible was a feature, not a bug.

I think there are plenty of other places that the modern, new-school 'retro-' microcomputers can find their setting - just a little bit above embedded, perhaps, side-wise to the mobile, and very definitely competing alongside desktop in terms of active user experience.

Not to mention, all the 'new retro consoles' are an awesome market for games and entertainment, of course ..

Re: Microcomputers – The Second Wave: Toward a Mass Market

#16

Post by forinti »

K0balt wrote: post #4

It’s truly remarkable to me that in the late 70s/early 80s it was considered that programming your own computer in basic was not something that required special skills or technical ability. It just goes to show how far out expectations have dropped, with basic human ingenuity and capability for expression having been crippled by reliance on increasingly advanced automation with increasingly simple interfaces. Humanit…

I think you overestimate the number of people who could actually do something useful with BASIC.

Re: Microcomputers – The Second Wave: Toward a Mass Market

#17

Post by forinti »

dspillett wrote: post #13
iberator wrote: post #10

I never used or even seen those computers, yet from pure curiosity I picked up 6502 CPU(Apple 2, Commodore 64, NES) assembly as a hobby project. Its surprisingly easy, even for dumb person like me. Great learning tool if you dream of building your own CPU architecture:) Try it!

> yet from pure curiosity I picked up 6502 CPU(Apple 2, Commodore 64, NES) assembly as a hobby project. I cut my programming teeth on an Acorn Electron (a somewhat cut-down BBC Micro) then later a Master128. The fact that the BASIC ROM included a decent multi-pass assembler was great for learning the deeper workings of the machine and such things in general. Being able to easily mix BASIC and assembly provided good l…

As well as mixing Assembly into BASIC, BBC BASIC allowed you to use its internal routines from Assembly. You could, for instance, use the floating point routines.

So the BASIC ROM was not a lost 16KB of address space if you were only using Assembly.

Re: Microcomputers – The Second Wave: Toward a Mass Market

#18

Post by simmerup »

K0balt wrote: post #4

It’s truly remarkable to me that in the late 70s/early 80s it was considered that programming your own computer in basic was not something that required special skills or technical ability. It just goes to show how far out expectations have dropped, with basic human ingenuity and capability for expression having been crippled by reliance on increasingly advanced automation with increasingly simple interfaces. Humanit…

People probably say the same about how we don't have looms in the house anymore and no one can repair their own clothes

Just because it's a skill you value doesn't mean its a skill others value

Re: Microcomputers – The Second Wave: Toward a Mass Market

#19

Post by dspillett »

forinti wrote: post #17
dspillett wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> yet from pure curiosity I picked up 6502 CPU(Apple 2, Commodore 64, NES) assembly as a hobby project. I cut my programming teeth on an Acorn Electron (a somewhat cut-down BBC Micro) then later a Master128. The fact that the BASIC ROM included a decent multi-pass assembler was great for learning the deeper workings of the machine and such things in general. Being able to easily mix BASIC and assembly provided good l…

As well as mixing Assembly into BASIC, BBC BASIC allowed you to use its internal routines from Assembly. You could, for instance, use the floating point routines. So the BASIC ROM was not a lost 16KB of address space if you were only using Assembly.

Aye. The graphics primitives, and just about everything else, too. A lot of thought went into making those machines conveniently programmable which made them great for both learning and tinkering.

Though the main two reasons I had for assembly were faster maths loops and graphics (via direct access to screen memory including, on the Master, the shadow screen for double-buffered drawing), so neither of those parts where sometime I called much.

Re: Microcomputers – The Second Wave: Toward a Mass Market

#20

Post by Gracana »

andrehacker wrote: post #5
zabzonk wrote: post #2

Just thinking how, shall we say "svelte" Woz looked in the first photo, compared with the "portly" (but cheerful and brilliant) look of later years.

Silly remark, but talking about "Svelte", I can't parse the picture with Mike Markkula: the Apple II in the front is not exactly a small computer: it is a full size keyboard with several inches of space between the keyboard and the edges so either I don't understand the basics of perspective or this is a scaled down model, no ?

Odd perspective, I guess? Here's a different angle: https://techland.time.com/2012/04/16/photos-the-apple-ii-tur...
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