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The EV tax credit is dead – here's what happens next

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Re: The EV tax credit is dead – here's what happens next

#11

Post by triceratops »

rayiner wrote: post #10
triceratops wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll believe this "ackchually cars are essential for poor people" nonsense when the biggest selling car in America isn't a massive, expensive pickup truck. It's financially disastrous for poor people to take a loan to buy a depreciating asset that sits parked 95% of the time. And requires monthly expenses for insurance and parking. Moving to EVs means middle- and upper-middle class people have a decision to make: spe…

In America, even most poor people have cars. In the bottom income quantile, 70% of households own a car: https://data.bts.gov/stories/s/Transportation-Cost-Burden-Tr... . In the bottom 20-40%, it’s 88%. And in the lowest income quantile, households spend over $6,000 per year on transportation. It’s not “financially disastrous,” because the alternative is paying much more money in rent and losing the flexibility to pu…

> The sooner we force middle class people and up move to EVs—which they can afford to do—the sooner we can create a robust market for used EVs for the bottom quantile.

Completely agree.

> And in the lowest income quantile, households spend over $6,000 per year on transportation.

And that's a much bigger impact on personal finances, proportionately, than higher-income people.

> because the alternative is paying much more money in rent and losing the flexibility to pursue job opportunities in different places

Because that's how American cities are built. Destroy yourself financially (and healthwise - 1h/day in the car is awful) driving, suffer through terribly long commutes on a bus route that drives everywhere, or rent shitty "luxury" shoeboxes near work. I agree it's not practical to fix it in the short-term. I just resent middle- and upper-middle class people opposing government incentives to switch to EVs because "it'll hurt the poor". Like no, the poor are screwed either way, you just don't want to pay up.

Re: The EV tax credit is dead – here's what happens next

#12

Post by hollerith »

rayiner wrote: post #3

We should dispense with this Obama-era “nudge” nonsense and simply ban gas cars.

In contrast, I prefer the least restrictive laws and regulations that achieve the goal.

Our nation's continuing to emit a little CO2 from automobile tailpipes is not so dire a danger that we can't meet our goal with a sufficiently drastic tax on fossil fuels, enabling those few consumers and organizations that benefit the most from emitting CO2 from automobile tailpipes to continue to emit a little.

It is hard for policymakers even to imagine all the ways an outright ban on something will incur costs -- and most of the time, they shouldn't even try.

Re: The EV tax credit is dead – here's what happens next

#13

Post by floxy »

rayiner wrote: post #10
triceratops wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll believe this "ackchually cars are essential for poor people" nonsense when the biggest selling car in America isn't a massive, expensive pickup truck. It's financially disastrous for poor people to take a loan to buy a depreciating asset that sits parked 95% of the time. And requires monthly expenses for insurance and parking. Moving to EVs means middle- and upper-middle class people have a decision to make: spe…

In America, even most poor people have cars. In the bottom income quantile, 70% of households own a car: https://data.bts.gov/stories/s/Transportation-Cost-Burden-Tr... . In the bottom 20-40%, it’s 88%. And in the lowest income quantile, households spend over $6,000 per year on transportation. It’s not “financially disastrous,” because the alternative is paying much more money in rent and losing the flexibility to pu…

>The median US car payment is $749 new and $529 used.

Most cars are apparently owned outright / not currently financed? 66% according to this source at least:

https://accountinginsights.org/what-percentage-of-cars-on-th...

Re: The EV tax credit is dead – here's what happens next

#14

Post by thebruce87m »

pcdoodle wrote: post #4
rayiner wrote: post #3

We should dispense with this Obama-era “nudge” nonsense and simply ban gas cars.

That way only the rich can drive! Put the rest of the cattle of public transit. /s

I keep getting told that EVs have massive depreciation, so can’t people buy one if these massively depreciated vehicles?

Re: The EV tax credit is dead – here's what happens next

#15

Post by JohnFen »

rayiner wrote: post #7
JohnFen wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be a disaster unless we build public transit systems that are actually good first.

Keep your eye on the climate change ball. We have a perfectly acceptable drop in replacement for gas cars in the form of EVs. This is not the time for your urbanism fetish or massive social engineering.

It would be a disaster without that because it would mean that a ton of people, mostly lower-income people, would essentially no longer be able to have cars at all. They'd still need to get around, thus the public transit.

It has nothing to with urbanism or social engineering, it's just about the need for transportation.

> We have a perfectly acceptable drop in replacement for gas cars in the form of EVs.

No, we don't. Not yet. There are still serious problems around charging that remain showstopper issues for many, mostly lower-income, people.

Re: The EV tax credit is dead – here's what happens next

#16

Post by floxy »

thebruce87m wrote: post #14
pcdoodle wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That way only the rich can drive! Put the rest of the cattle of public transit. /s

I keep getting told that EVs have massive depreciation, so can’t people buy one if these massively depreciated vehicles?

For the modestly priced vehicles, the $7,500 tax credit is a huge contributor to depreciation that people seem to overlook. When I purchased a Nissan Leaf back in 2022, the sticker price was like $28,000, and the price after the $7,500 rebate was $20,500. So of course, if you were to turn around right away and try to sell it on the used market, you wouldn't be able to sell it for more than $20,500, since buyers would be crazy to buy it used from you, when they could buy a brand new one for $20,500. So that like 27% depreciate just due to the tax credit. And then for the more luxury EVs (like Audi, Mercedes, etc), there is the fact that luxury vehicles already depreciate more than less expensive cars (ICE included). And the battery tech keeps getting better, so fewer people want a 200 mile version when the newer versions have 300 mile range. So there is less of a market for $100k MSRP vehicles three years later that are going for $40k, since people are also worried about luxury priced repairs / maintenance, when they could get a new $40k Chevy, with a bigger battery and new warranty, etc.

Re: The EV tax credit is dead – here's what happens next

#17

Post by Ekaros »

rayiner wrote: post #3

We should dispense with this Obama-era “nudge” nonsense and simply ban gas cars.

I think we should at same time also do total ban of private use of any fossil fuels. No more gas or oil or other fossil fuels. Only renewables and biomass. No private company or person is allowed to burn any fossil fuel inside economic borders.

Re: The EV tax credit is dead – here's what happens next

#18

Post by rayiner »

JohnFen wrote: post #15
rayiner wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep your eye on the climate change ball. We have a perfectly acceptable drop in replacement for gas cars in the form of EVs. This is not the time for your urbanism fetish or massive social engineering.

It would be a disaster without that because it would mean that a ton of people, mostly lower-income people, would essentially no longer be able to have cars at all. They'd still need to get around, thus the public transit. It has nothing to with urbanism or social engineering, it's just about the need for transportation. > We have a perfectly acceptable drop in replacement for gas cars in the form of EVs. No, we don'…

70% of households even in the bottom income quantile have a car, and it’s 88% in the second to bottom income quantile. There’s no reason with modern battery technology these cars can’t be as cheap as gas cars. And building charging infrastructure is a thousand times easier than building public transit.

Meanwhile, public transit keeps people poor by limiting their ability to move around for better jobs and housing. It’s a huge unnecessary tax on poor people to try to yoke them to public transit in the name of climate change mitigation.

Re: The EV tax credit is dead – here's what happens next

#19

Post by rayiner »

triceratops wrote: post #11
rayiner wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In America, even most poor people have cars. In the bottom income quantile, 70% of households own a car: https://data.bts.gov/stories/s/Transportation-Cost-Burden-Tr... . In the bottom 20-40%, it’s 88%. And in the lowest income quantile, households spend over $6,000 per year on transportation. It’s not “financially disastrous,” because the alternative is paying much more money in rent and losing the flexibility to pu…

> The sooner we force middle class people and up move to EVs—which they can afford to do—the sooner we can create a robust market for used EVs for the bottom quantile. Completely agree. > And in the lowest income quantile, households spend over $6,000 per year on transportation. And that's a much bigger impact on personal finances, proportionately, than higher-income people. > because the alternative is paying much m…

> Because that's how American cities are built

It’s not just “American cities.” Even in Tokyo—which has transit better than what Americans could ever aspire to build—getting around on public transit takes much longer than driving. And it can take even longer if you change jobs and your workplace is no longer near the same train like as your previous workplace. Even with Tokyo’s amazing infrastructure, people using public transit there don’t have as much geographic flexibility in finding jobs and housing as my wife’s lower income family members in rural Oregon and Idaho.

Re: The EV tax credit is dead – here's what happens next

#20

Post by JohnFen »

rayiner wrote: post #18
JohnFen wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be a disaster without that because it would mean that a ton of people, mostly lower-income people, would essentially no longer be able to have cars at all. They'd still need to get around, thus the public transit. It has nothing to with urbanism or social engineering, it's just about the need for transportation. > We have a perfectly acceptable drop in replacement for gas cars in the form of EVs. No, we don'…

70% of households even in the bottom income quantile have a car, and it’s 88% in the second to bottom income quantile. There’s no reason with modern battery technology these cars can’t be as cheap as gas cars. And building charging infrastructure is a thousand times easier than building public transit. Meanwhile, public transit keeps people poor by limiting their ability to move around for better jobs and housing. It…

OK, then let's build a good charging infrastructure first. It just seems to me that getting public transit in a good place is a much easier and cheaper task than putting a good charging infrastructure in place. If I'm wrong about that, I don't mind.

My point is that if we take away people's gas cars before having an alternative that works for everyone, that's bad. And we don't have an alternative that works for everyone yet.

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