Selling Lemons • Hacker News Board

Re: Selling Lemons

#11

Post by supportengineer » Tue, Sep 30, 2025, 4:56 PM UTC

jp57 wrote: post #4

... [W]hile shopping online for a sleep mask. Brands like MZOO, YFONG, WAOAW popped up, .... The long tail of generic brands on e-commerce platforms is a textbook lemons market: good products get drowned out by these alphabet soup products. I've found the emergence of these anti-brands to be fascinating, if also annoying. They are not really brands at all. The purpose of a brand is to signal something about who made…

Even more frustrating is when you get a GREAT product from an anti-brand, but there’s no way to buy more from them once they’re gone.

Re: Selling Lemons

#12

Post by jamestimmins » Tue, Sep 30, 2025, 4:57 PM UTC

I actually have the Mzoo sleep mask he mentioned and I quite like it.

Wirecutter recommends it and Reddit seems to agree.

Doesn't negate the article, but just clarifying for anyone in the market who thinks it's a lemon.

Re: Selling Lemons

#13

Post by mystraline » Tue, Sep 30, 2025, 4:58 PM UTC

jstanley wrote: post #6

jp57 wrote: post #4

... [W]hile shopping online for a sleep mask. Brands like MZOO, YFONG, WAOAW popped up, .... The long tail of generic brands on e-commerce platforms is a textbook lemons market: good products get drowned out by these alphabet soup products. I've found the emergence of these anti-brands to be fascinating, if also annoying. They are not really brands at all. The purpose of a brand is to signal something about who made…

The reason this phenomenon exists is because Amazon tried to block generic products from their site by saying the product must feature the seller's brand name. Solution: make millions of brand names and write them on the product. It's slightly more annoying and expensive for everyone involved, but it circumvents Amazon's policy.

Yep, that makes a lot of sense then.

But yeah I call the site Scamazon. Even if you think you buy legit, theres a good chance of counterfeit due to SKU mixing.

And weirdly enough, in quite a few areas, Scamazon is like 20% more expensive than other retailers.

These days, I ask in discord groups who they recommend. At least I can avoid the AI shitfest and get real humans' expertise.

Re: Selling Lemons

#14

Post by rusk » Tue, Sep 30, 2025, 4:59 PM UTC

There’s definitely always been vibes of this off the PC market. So hard to get one that’s “nice” y’know what I mean. There are some notable high end PC vendors but they typically sell direct. In the high street, it’s lemons all the way down. Even reputable brands have to get in on the action with a lemon line. Apple’s whole thing it seems, has always to stay away from being a lemon. The only time they came close, incidentally was in the 90s when they started licensing their product to other manufacturers. This is what solid branding does. Helps you not be perceived as a lemon.

Re: Selling Lemons

#15

Post by gmueckl » Tue, Sep 30, 2025, 5:01 PM UTC

Who here remembers those old 1000+ pages thick mail-order shopping catalogues? This was a (more or less) carefully curated collection of items because the catalogs could only have a finite number of pages. When Amazon started to accept virtually unvetted product listings from third parties, they opened the floodgates for lemons.

It's kind of a real world ACME equivalent now. I'm surprised that I don't make that duped coyote face more often after ordering from them.

The other part of the story is that a lot of formerly respectable quality brands now sell much poorer quality goods. I'm not sure whether this is adaptation to a lemon market, but it does reinforce the information asymmetry. Infindnlywlf thinking, "this used to be a good brand once, but can I still rely on them?"

Some of the bad incentives have always been there because they are fundamental to capitalism. But I feel that the Internet and global trade together have turbocharged a particularly nasty race to the bottom.

Re: Selling Lemons

#16

Post by us-merul » Tue, Sep 30, 2025, 5:02 PM UTC

The difference between meta and outputs reminds me of Goodhart’s law: “When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.” Similar to the metricization of research and science, for example.

Re: Selling Lemons

#17

Post by thiele » Tue, Sep 30, 2025, 5:04 PM UTC

jamestimmins wrote: post #12

I actually have the Mzoo sleep mask he mentioned and I quite like it. Wirecutter recommends it and Reddit seems to agree. Doesn't negate the article, but just clarifying for anyone in the market who thinks it's a lemon.

I have the MZOO sleep mask as well and it’s the best I’ve found after trying a bunch of different brands. I bought a second as a backup and would rebuy in the future if needed.

Re: Selling Lemons

#18

Post by somenameforme » Tue, Sep 30, 2025, 5:07 PM UTC

reactordev wrote: post #9

james_marks wrote: post #2

The rise of graphic design tools and digital printing play an interesting role in this. 20 years ago, existing as a brand required an effort and resources threshold. Even to have a logo took some level of commitment and skill. Minimum production runs on trivial things like the box insert meant there were stakes to bringing a product to market. With those barriers gone, we have more brands than ever, and they mean rel…

Can confirm. I went to school for this very purpose. It led me down a maze of software engineering jobs and eventually prof serv that I'm in now. (Yey?) The ability for anyone to learn Photoshop or learn how to create a website, create a game, create anything, content or otherwise, and sell it on the marketplace for a quick cash grab has never been easier. I think most people set out to try with their best intentions…

Reviews are the filter. They can be gamed, and that's a real issue, but it's combatable. And in any case even if you get the market down to just 'thing with good reviews' and 'thing with good [fake] reviews' that's much more manageable.

So for a developer perspective all you need to achieve is that critical mass of early positive reviews, and that's not especially difficult if you have something half decent.

Re: Selling Lemons

#19

Post by gweinberg » Tue, Sep 30, 2025, 5:08 PM UTC

gmueckl wrote: post #15

Who here remembers those old 1000+ pages thick mail-order shopping catalogues? This was a (more or less) carefully curated collection of items because the catalogs could only have a finite number of pages. When Amazon started to accept virtually unvetted product listings from third parties, they opened the floodgates for lemons. It's kind of a real world ACME equivalent now. I'm surprised that I don't make that duped…

The sears catalog was all selling sears stuff, there were no third party sales. Branding as assurance of quality can actually work pretty well.

Re: Selling Lemons

#20

Post by wat10000 » Tue, Sep 30, 2025, 5:09 PM UTC

jstanley wrote: post #6

jp57 wrote: post #4

... [W]hile shopping online for a sleep mask. Brands like MZOO, YFONG, WAOAW popped up, .... The long tail of generic brands on e-commerce platforms is a textbook lemons market: good products get drowned out by these alphabet soup products. I've found the emergence of these anti-brands to be fascinating, if also annoying. They are not really brands at all. The purpose of a brand is to signal something about who made…

The reason this phenomenon exists is because Amazon tried to block generic products from their site by saying the product must feature the seller's brand name. Solution: make millions of brand names and write them on the product. It's slightly more annoying and expensive for everyone involved, but it circumvents Amazon's policy.

The root cause is the unending quest for scale.

This could be resolved by having a human person with decent judgment evaluate and approve all products before they can be listed. That's how normal retail outfits operate. Everything you find on a Safeway shelf has been authorized by someone at Safeway corporate. That doesn't mean it's good, but it at least means they consciously intend to sell it.

But that scales poorly. This person has to have some sort of skin in the game, so you can't just contract it out or automate it. Amazon leadership is making a conscious decision to allow their store to be flooded with shit in order to reduce their costs of curating it. Given how successful they are, I have a hard time arguing they made the wrong choice, but I certainly don't like it.

It's the same reason it's hard to impossible to reach customer service at many of these places. Google would much rather lose you as a "customer" than spend the money it takes to have a person available who can get your gmail account unfucked.