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Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

shujisado.org

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Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#11

Post by k33n »

trwcock wrote: post #7

Is programming lame enough yet that we can get away from everything being done by hr and get back to doing cool things with weird people?

Hopefully! And it takes every kind of weird to make it fun. You don't have to like or hang with everyone in a community. But sometimes the people you don't understand personally wind up being the ones you will respect the most from a skill/talent perspective. A strong foundation of mutual respect built up over time is how you create real tolerance and even change minds.

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#12

Post by cybrox »

Mashimo wrote: post #10
curtisblaine wrote: post #6

CoCs are one of the reasons why I choose to not contribute. I don't enjoy the risk of someone with an axe to grind to drag me into some absurd GitHub comments drama and feel justified by some generic wording on the CoC.

But could they not do the same without a CoC?

Yes, that's the point of why CoCs are essentially useless.

Humans should be able to interact politely in any setting and if they don't, the issue needs to be settled with good old human interaction anyways.

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#13

Post by weird-eye-issue »

serial_dev wrote: post #5

The thing is that codes of conduct do not help honest actors “regulate” and deal with troublemakers. I used to organize meetups and I visited meetups organized by others who had code of conduct, and I just never understood what they were hoping to achieve with that. If someone behaves poorly, you can point at a document all you want, but it doesn’t help you deal that the problematic individual. A document that you pu…

> And we didn’t even talk about how it is being misused. People would point to these documents to silence and shut out people they don’t like and at the same time tolerate poor behavior that are clearly in violation of code of conduct by people they do like or whose politics or opinions they share.

Has it occurred to you that's actually exactly why they exist? :)

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#14

Post by squigz »

It seems some people need to re-read the title and article and consider the words "heavy", "bureaucratic" and the like

No, CoCs - or rules in general - are not inherently bad. HN has some, which the moderators and the community enforce well, and it's generally one of the best platforms on the Internet for intelligent discussion.

Yes, heavy CoCs can be weaponized and abused, if there is little or no trust between the community and its leaders. But with or without a CoC, such a community will always be prone to such abuse. You think moderators need to establish a CoC to push their politics on people if they want? How does that even make sense? Why not just... do that, without a CoC?

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#15

Post by w4rh4wk5 »

Maybe a bit of an unpopular opinion here, but I still think the benevolent dictator is the way to go for open-source projects. If you are unhappy with how things are handled, fork it and do better.

However, there's probably a cutoff point for core infrastructure where we should move away from having a single person in charge.

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#17

Post by squigz »

serial_dev wrote: post #5

The thing is that codes of conduct do not help honest actors “regulate” and deal with troublemakers. I used to organize meetups and I visited meetups organized by others who had code of conduct, and I just never understood what they were hoping to achieve with that. If someone behaves poorly, you can point at a document all you want, but it doesn’t help you deal that the problematic individual. A document that you pu…

Having something you can point to and say "This is why you're being removed" often removes some headaches. Some people will claim it's unjustified, moderator abuse, etc, if you don't. At least with some rules, there's less wiggle room. Of course, some people are going to respond poorly even with some rules, but it's also not just about the offenders - other community members being able to see there's some logic and reason to removals is good.

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#18

Post by ricardobeat »

Mashimo wrote: post #10
curtisblaine wrote: post #6

CoCs are one of the reasons why I choose to not contribute. I don't enjoy the risk of someone with an axe to grind to drag me into some absurd GitHub comments drama and feel justified by some generic wording on the CoC.

But could they not do the same without a CoC?

They could, but then it’s their word vs yours, not you vs sacred Code-of-Conduct.

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#19

Post by satisfice »

I want a code of conduct that explicitly allows debate, disagreement, and normalizes hurting other people’s feelings with your words.

What matters is that people are operating in good faith.

I would also say that IF you have been accepted as a member of a community then you and your feelings must matter to that community unless and until you are ejected from the community. There needs to be a system for accepting and expelling people, and that system should rest on the judgment of people that the community has selected as trustworthy (until and unless those people are expelled).

Re: Heavy codes of conduct are unnecessary for open source projects

#20

Post by 3form »

I'm not very involved in the topic, so my POV might be very wrong - but most effective enforcement, from my overall life experience, is having someone act as a "bad guy" and sharply deal consequences to the people that behave like assholes.

I feel that having a detailed COC, while a very good sentiment in theory, in practice must bring about people who will try their best to skirt around the edge of COC and make trouble for the maintainers - who I expect want to stay "nice", but they're forced to act harshly in the end anyway.

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