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US cities pay too much for buses

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Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#11

Post by JKCalhoun »

mschuster91 wrote: post #3

A lot of fluff (although I do appreciate the hard numbers and reasons - thirteen shades of grey for flooring is utterly ridiculous) for essentially these two points: - low lot size combined with a lot of customization demands leads to high per-unit costs - "Buy American" is expensive. D'uh. Unfortunately the article doesn't dig down deeper into why BYD and other Chinese manufacturers are cheaper - 996 style slave lab…

Not calling you out on BYD, but a lack of competition in the U.S. means we'll never know what the price for "Buy American" could be.

To your point though, even at a much higher price, the "Buy American" is putting that money back into the U.S. economy (we hope).

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#12

Post by red_rech »

sidewndr46 wrote: post #10
lenerdenator wrote: post #2

> "A new paper argues that lack of competition, demand for custom features and “Buy America” rules have driven up costs for transit agencies in the US." If that's not the most NYC finance-centered headline ever, I don't know what is. "If we just offload our bus-building industry to somewhere else, we could save $x on taxes each year. Yeah, it eliminates jobs and is another blow against strategically-important heavy i…

imagine how much money the government could save by just continuing to collect taxes and not providing any services! we could privatize everything!

Yes! we can even distribute political and military power to selected individuals who can rule over small portions maintaining security and collecting taxes.

After all, it was divine right (Darwinian evolution, AI schizobabble, etc) that made them men of might.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#13

Post by mschuster91 »

pm90 wrote: post #9
red_rech wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 996 style slave labor production, a lack of environmental protection laws and, most notably, a lot of state/regional subsidies artificially dumping prices below sustainability not just against American companies but against other Chinese companies. Silicon Valley CEOs saw this and thought it should be their playbook. So hell, maybe made in America will eventually get cheaper as this innovative economic and social s…

More likely that the companies that institute this will hemorrhage talent that is offered a better deal by competitors. 996 works because the supply of Engineers is quite high in China.

> More likely that the companies that institute this will hemorrhage talent that is offered a better deal by competitors.

Won't work when the market colludes. And Silicon Valley Big Tech already got caught in such a cartel - see [1], debated back then in [2].

[1] https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-jo...

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10168214

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#14

Post by namdnay »

lenerdenator wrote: post #2

> "A new paper argues that lack of competition, demand for custom features and “Buy America” rules have driven up costs for transit agencies in the US." If that's not the most NYC finance-centered headline ever, I don't know what is. "If we just offload our bus-building industry to somewhere else, we could save $x on taxes each year. Yeah, it eliminates jobs and is another blow against strategically-important heavy i…

it's not a question of "offloading" it, it's a question of reaping the benefits of global competition

Would you really be better off if you could only buy cars made by US manufacturers? Did americans really lose out when Toyota and co arrived? Would Boeing aircraft really be better if they didn't have to compete with Airbus? Or would the incumbents just get lazy?

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#15

Post by mschuster91 »

sidewndr46 wrote: post #10
lenerdenator wrote: post #2

> "A new paper argues that lack of competition, demand for custom features and “Buy America” rules have driven up costs for transit agencies in the US." If that's not the most NYC finance-centered headline ever, I don't know what is. "If we just offload our bus-building industry to somewhere else, we could save $x on taxes each year. Yeah, it eliminates jobs and is another blow against strategically-important heavy i…

imagine how much money the government could save by just continuing to collect taxes and not providing any services! we could privatize everything!

That's ... decently close to what the current political course of action is, a strategy called "starve the beast" [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#16

Post by myrmidon »

mschuster91 wrote: post #3

A lot of fluff (although I do appreciate the hard numbers and reasons - thirteen shades of grey for flooring is utterly ridiculous) for essentially these two points: - low lot size combined with a lot of customization demands leads to high per-unit costs - "Buy American" is expensive. D'uh. Unfortunately the article doesn't dig down deeper into why BYD and other Chinese manufacturers are cheaper - 996 style slave lab…

I think labor cost alone is most plausible, especially combined with higher quantities. Average yearly salary in urban China is Getting parity with subsidies, worker/environmental protection and regulation overhead would not even come close to make the US price-competitive for labor intensive work like this right now, IMO.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#17

Post by mrits »

myrmidon wrote: post #7

I think this shows one of the downsides of trade barriers very well: You get stuck with undesirable industries (diesel bus manufacturing), binding capital and labor better used elsewhere (and you easily end up with underperforming, overpriced solutions, too). But I'm curious how much this actually affects transport costs. If such a bus is used 12h/day, then even overpaying 100% for the vehicle should get outscaled by…

What is wrong with diesel bus manufacturing? Just the exhaust pedestrians have to breath in? It seems near the bottom of the list for things we'd need to solve for carbon emissions.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#18

Post by mschuster91 »

namdnay wrote: post #14
lenerdenator wrote: post #2

> "A new paper argues that lack of competition, demand for custom features and “Buy America” rules have driven up costs for transit agencies in the US." If that's not the most NYC finance-centered headline ever, I don't know what is. "If we just offload our bus-building industry to somewhere else, we could save $x on taxes each year. Yeah, it eliminates jobs and is another blow against strategically-important heavy i…

it's not a question of "offloading" it, it's a question of reaping the benefits of global competition Would you really be better off if you could only buy cars made by US manufacturers? Did americans really lose out when Toyota and co arrived? Would Boeing aircraft really be better if they didn't have to compete with Airbus? Or would the incumbents just get lazy?

There's a difference between private companies and state-run companies / authorities.

When a US airline thinks it's better for them to switch over to Airbus, by all means do so, that's competition.

But taxpayer money should not be used to prop up other countries' economies unless explicitly designated that way (e.g. contributions to international agencies, economic aid), and certainly not if that replaces domestic union labor.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#19

Post by potato3732842 »

red_rech wrote: post #12
sidewndr46 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

imagine how much money the government could save by just continuing to collect taxes and not providing any services! we could privatize everything!

Yes! we can even distribute political and military power to selected individuals who can rule over small portions maintaining security and collecting taxes. After all, it was divine right (Darwinian evolution, AI schizobabble, etc) that made them men of might.

>Yes! we can even distribute political and military power to selected individuals who can rule over small portions maintaining security and collecting taxes.

That's basically what states and municipalities are.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#20

Post by uxp100 »

mrits wrote: post #17
myrmidon wrote: post #7

I think this shows one of the downsides of trade barriers very well: You get stuck with undesirable industries (diesel bus manufacturing), binding capital and labor better used elsewhere (and you easily end up with underperforming, overpriced solutions, too). But I'm curious how much this actually affects transport costs. If such a bus is used 12h/day, then even overpaying 100% for the vehicle should get outscaled by…

What is wrong with diesel bus manufacturing? Just the exhaust pedestrians have to breath in? It seems near the bottom of the list for things we'd need to solve for carbon emissions.

My experience is tainted by the fact that the battery electric busses are new and the diesel busses are (comparatively) old, but our battery electric busses are far more comfortable to ride. Diesels are uh, jerky. Maybe the drivers fault, but that’s how it is.
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