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IPv4 is almost gone (in Europe anyway)

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Re: IPv4 is almost gone (in Europe anyway)

#11

Post by kiallmacinnes »

ginko wrote: post #9

I'm afraid of the possibility that instead of adopting IPv6, internet providers will just switch to ISP-wide NAT, making the internet even more asymmetric than it already is.

I sincerely hope not! ISP wide NAT is bound to cause countless issues for internet services and businesses.

The first and mose obvious examples I can think of:

* Internet services (eg websites, netfix etc) can no longer blacklist IP addresses without blocking entire ISPs.

* Businesses can no longer offer "direct to the office" VPNs for remote workers.. Actually - even site-2-site VPN's will break if both sides are behind an ISP wide NAT.

Re: IPv4 is almost gone (in Europe anyway)

#12

Post by oasisbob »

indiecore wrote: post #2

Yep and nothing will be done by ISPs until they are all completely gone (and maybe not even then, scarcity is good for business).

This isn't true.

Comcast, Verizon, and T-Mobile are a few of the big eyeball networks who are making large infrastructure investments in IPv6. ISPs are far ahead of most content and hosting providers in this area, as they bear the pain of IPv4 scarcity when providing addresses to their subscribers.

Transit providers are on the whole prepared for v6 as well.

As an ISP, you don't want to wake up one day and see analysis that your network numbering is at odds with your growth plans.

Re: IPv4 is almost gone (in Europe anyway)

#13

Post by X-Istence »

michaelt wrote: post #7
andyking wrote: post #3

This seems to have been rumbling on for some time now - at least for the past five years or so. My OS supports IPv6, my home router supports IPv6, but at no point have any of the home ISPs I've used (three in the past five years - BT Internet, Be and Origin Broadband) made any mention of any sort of IPv6 support. I'm not au fait with the workings of such huge operations, so is there any reason for ISP adoption of IPv…

According to [1] there are a few - no big names, though. As [2] says, running IPv6 is fairly boring; you get access to the same web as everyone else. [1] http://www.sixxs.net/faq/connectivity/?faq=native&countr... [2] http://bens.me.uk/2011/adventures-in-ipv6

I'm running on IPv6 on Comcast in the US, and yes while I get access to the same web, I have noticed that I was having issues with IPv4 that I don't have on IPv6. Such as limits per IP/account tuple logged into certain servers.

So my iPad, iPhone, and MacBook Pro being logged into the same Google account over IMAP would sometimes cause issues because of too many connections for that specific account, now with IPv6 that isn't an issue because all of my devices now have their own unique IPv6 address. Perfect.

Re: IPv4 is almost gone (in Europe anyway)

#14

Post by kiallmacinnes »

For those of you curious about IPv6, and wanting to experiment with it at home or in the office, have a look at SixXS[1] and Hurricane Electric IPv6[2].

They both offer free IPv6 "tunnels" which can be used to provide IPv6 to your home/office.

We use SixXS in the office, and the tunnel has been alive without issue for 83 weeks and counting..

(P.S. SixXS is probably the easier choice if you have a dynamic IP, or are not setting the tunnel up from your router directly..)

[1]: http://www.sixxs.net/ [2]: http://ipv6.he.net/

Re: IPv4 is almost gone (in Europe anyway)

#15

Post by bad_user »

kiallmacinnes wrote: post #11
ginko wrote: post #9

I'm afraid of the possibility that instead of adopting IPv6, internet providers will just switch to ISP-wide NAT, making the internet even more asymmetric than it already is.

I sincerely hope not! ISP wide NAT is bound to cause countless issues for internet services and businesses. The first and mose obvious examples I can think of: * Internet services (eg websites, netfix etc) can no longer blacklist IP addresses without blocking entire ISPs. * Businesses can no longer offer "direct to the office" VPNs for remote workers.. Actually - even site-2-site VPN's will break if both sides are be…

Look on the bright side: users will have more privacy.

Re: IPv4 is almost gone (in Europe anyway)

#16

Post by kiallmacinnes »

michaelt wrote: post #7
andyking wrote: post #3

This seems to have been rumbling on for some time now - at least for the past five years or so. My OS supports IPv6, my home router supports IPv6, but at no point have any of the home ISPs I've used (three in the past five years - BT Internet, Be and Origin Broadband) made any mention of any sort of IPv6 support. I'm not au fait with the workings of such huge operations, so is there any reason for ISP adoption of IPv…

According to [1] there are a few - no big names, though. As [2] says, running IPv6 is fairly boring; you get access to the same web as everyone else. [1] http://www.sixxs.net/faq/connectivity/?faq=native&countr... [2] http://bens.me.uk/2011/adventures-in-ipv6

[2]'s comment "you get access to the same web as everyone else" really only applies to consumers of "the web".

And - more importantly - soon no longer applies even to that. IPv4 is essentially gone, and when it is, not having IPv6 will mean your web is smaller.

IPv6 gives you much more freedom in configuring your network as both a service provider and consumer. This isn't boring :)

Re: IPv4 is almost gone (in Europe anyway)

#17

Post by ay »

ginko wrote: post #9

I'm afraid of the possibility that instead of adopting IPv6, internet providers will just switch to ISP-wide NAT, making the internet even more asymmetric than it already is.

To be clear: transitioning to IPv6 is a two step process:

1) you need to enable IPv6 everywhere 2) when that is working, you can sunset IPv4

So, every transition strategy involves both the life support for IPv4 and the delivery of IPv6.

Sometimes the ISP has no choice but to use it. And iff the ISP also rolls out IPv6 in parallel, this is fine, the users can access the dualstack websites over IPv6, while still using IPv4 for the rest of the content. And this is the key.

A lot of folks here are building products that have their front door on the Web.

And this is where all of you, as a "content provider", can make a difference for those users who already have IPv6 by providing the service both on IPv4 and IPv6.

Re: IPv4 is almost gone (in Europe anyway)

#18

Post by kiallmacinnes »

ay wrote: post #17
ginko wrote: post #9

I'm afraid of the possibility that instead of adopting IPv6, internet providers will just switch to ISP-wide NAT, making the internet even more asymmetric than it already is.

To be clear: transitioning to IPv6 is a two step process: 1) you need to enable IPv6 everywhere 2) when that is working, you can sunset IPv4 So, every transition strategy involves both the life support for IPv4 and the delivery of IPv6. Sometimes the ISP has no choice but to use it. And iff the ISP also rolls out IPv6 in parallel, this is fine, the users can access the dualstack websites over IPv6, while still using…

Agreed - ISP wide NAT will be necessary, but if they choose that instead of ISP wide NAT+IPv6, then we're in trouble!

EDIT: Also - Everything I have a hand in is accessible via both IPv4 and IPv6..

Re: IPv4 is almost gone (in Europe anyway)

#19

Post by ay »

bad_user wrote: post #15
kiallmacinnes wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sincerely hope not! ISP wide NAT is bound to cause countless issues for internet services and businesses. The first and mose obvious examples I can think of: * Internet services (eg websites, netfix etc) can no longer blacklist IP addresses without blocking entire ISPs. * Businesses can no longer offer "direct to the office" VPNs for remote workers.. Actually - even site-2-site VPN's will break if both sides are be…

Look on the bright side: users will have more privacy.

http://panopticlick.eff.org/

Works over NATs and proxies. And obviously the techniques from there are already used by those who want to sell your info for profit. So, please, let's put this meme to rest :-)

Blacklisting can and will happen based on other things, just that it is more costly and less performant. So the consumers will pay for that in hidden costs - less of the "useful" services delivered, etc.

The VPN part is sort-of correct - it will depend on the type of the NAT. With most of the NATs, establishing the direct connection over a pair of them is technically possible - take a look at STUN, TURN and ICE (IETF standards).

Re: IPv4 is almost gone (in Europe anyway)

#20

Post by blahedo »

andyking wrote: post #3

This seems to have been rumbling on for some time now - at least for the past five years or so. My OS supports IPv6, my home router supports IPv6, but at no point have any of the home ISPs I've used (three in the past five years - BT Internet, Be and Origin Broadband) made any mention of any sort of IPv6 support. I'm not au fait with the workings of such huge operations, so is there any reason for ISP adoption of IPv…

> This seems to have been rumbling on for some time now - at least for the past five years or so. ... It's not like it's been an overnight thing.

To say the least! This particular rumble ("we're out!") may be new-ish in the last few years, but the general rumble ("we'll run out!") has been going on a lot longer, and the transition is pretty much the opposite of an overnight thing. I learned about how IPv6 was imminently needed and right around the corner when I took a networks class in college. In 1996. Tanenbaum's book (from four editions ago!) includes ten pages on IPv6 that could appear in a book published today nearly unchanged.

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