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Deep Zionism

scottaaronson.blog

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Re: Deep Zionism

#11

Post by richardfeynman »

marssaxman wrote: post #9

> Suppose a man has already murdered most of your family, including several of your children, for no other reason than ...the fact that you have walled him and everyone he knows into an open-air prison, where nothing goes in or out without your approval, systematically keeping him, his family, his friends, his children, and everyone around him just this side of starvation, with no hope of release, for decades on end?…

Prior to 10/7, more gazans travelled abroad each year than Indians on a relative basis. There was no open-air prison.

Re: Deep Zionism

#12

Post by richardfeynman »

artninja1988 wrote: post #3

Agree with Peter Woit's reply to Aaronson's post. From the article: Given the ever more obvious case that genocide is going on in Gaza, I had been thinking that Scott Aaronson’s going quiet on the issue meant that he was starting to realize that this had become indefensible. Turns out I was very wrong. In his latest blog posting, he explains that the current situation in Gaza is analogous to an evil murderer kidnappi…

The population of Gaza has increased during the war. Roughly 60k deaths and roughly 103k births, using the UN statistics of 150 births per day in Gaza.

Re: Deep Zionism

#13

Post by konmok »

richardfeynman wrote: post #11
marssaxman wrote: post #9

> Suppose a man has already murdered most of your family, including several of your children, for no other reason than ...the fact that you have walled him and everyone he knows into an open-air prison, where nothing goes in or out without your approval, systematically keeping him, his family, his friends, his children, and everyone around him just this side of starvation, with no hope of release, for decades on end?…

Prior to 10/7, more gazans travelled abroad each year than Indians on a relative basis. There was no open-air prison.

Source? Also, is that "travelled abroad" or "decided escaping persecution was worth losing their home, never to return"?

Re: Deep Zionism

#14

Post by richardfeynman »

richardfeynman wrote: post #11
marssaxman wrote: post #9

> Suppose a man has already murdered most of your family, including several of your children, for no other reason than ...the fact that you have walled him and everyone he knows into an open-air prison, where nothing goes in or out without your approval, systematically keeping him, his family, his friends, his children, and everyone around him just this side of starvation, with no hope of release, for decades on end?…

Prior to 10/7, more gazans travelled abroad each year than Indians on a relative basis. There was no open-air prison.

Additionally, when Israel gave Gaza to the Gazans in 2005, it wasn't fenced in yet the Gazans still attacked Israel, demonstrating the attacks weren't being about fenced in, but rather a visceral hate towards the yahood. The fences were built after the second intifada.

Re: Deep Zionism

#15

Post by konmok »

richardfeynman wrote: post #12
artninja1988 wrote: post #3

Agree with Peter Woit's reply to Aaronson's post. From the article: Given the ever more obvious case that genocide is going on in Gaza, I had been thinking that Scott Aaronson’s going quiet on the issue meant that he was starting to realize that this had become indefensible. Turns out I was very wrong. In his latest blog posting, he explains that the current situation in Gaza is analogous to an evil murderer kidnappi…

The population of Gaza has increased during the war. Roughly 60k deaths and roughly 103k births, using the UN statistics of 150 births per day in Gaza.

Source? Also, even if this is true, it doesn't actually negate claims of genocide. That is still a colossal number of deaths, and conditions in Gaza are rapidly worsening to the point that few of those born will survive.

Re: Deep Zionism

#16

Post by richardfeynman »

konmok wrote: post #13
richardfeynman wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prior to 10/7, more gazans travelled abroad each year than Indians on a relative basis. There was no open-air prison.

Source? Also, is that "travelled abroad" or "decided escaping persecution was worth losing their home, never to return"?

Source: https://www.ochaopt.org/content/movement-and-out-gaza-2022

"In 2022, the Egyptian authorities allowed more exits of people through their border. The 144,899 exits recorded during the year are 44 per cent more than in 2021, representing the highest figure since 2014."

That's 6.6% of the gaza population travelling out of gaza per year, higher than the percent of Indians who travel abroad each year. This statistic also doesn't reflect the hundreds of thousands of exits from Gaza to Israel each year.

The "open air prison" is a lie. You can impute whatever motive you want to them leaving. I'm sure escaping Hamas persecution was a part of it for many of them. Israeli prosecution wasn't really a thing and the "mowing the lawn" narrative is propaganda.

Re: Deep Zionism

#17

Post by konmok »

richardfeynman wrote: post #16
konmok wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source? Also, is that "travelled abroad" or "decided escaping persecution was worth losing their home, never to return"?

Source: https://www.ochaopt.org/content/movement-and-out-gaza-2022 "In 2022, the Egyptian authorities allowed more exits of people through their border. The 144,899 exits recorded during the year are 44 per cent more than in 2021, representing the highest figure since 2014." That's 6.6% of the gaza population travelling out of gaza per year, higher than the percent of Indians who travel abroad each year. This statist…

It's interesting that the article directly contradicts your own takeaway:

"In 2022, more people were let out of Gaza; however, their movement remained the exception rather than the rule, with the vast majority of residents, over 2 million people, virtually ‘locked in.’"

Additionally, that's 144,899 exits, not 144,899 distinct people exiting, nor is it even 144,899 exits made by Palestinians. So your interpretation is multiply incorrect.

Would you like to clarify what you mean by "Israeli prosecution wasn't really a thing"?

Re: Deep Zionism

#18

Post by breppp »

throw310822 wrote: post #6
seydor wrote: post #2

This is not saying anything that we don't know: wild animals are selfish and will do anything to achieve their biological imperative believing that ends justify the means. this barely constitutes a "stance" and there is virtually nothing about morality here because morality is a whole level (and a bunch of frontal cortex mass) above this. the author does not even explain why he believes what they say, so why even wri…

The author is very clear that he considers Israel being "the victim" despite the fact that it is the illegal occupier of parts of Palestine, and that the disproportion in military power between it and its supposed "tormentor" it's so huge that they have razed its entire region to the ground suffering minimal military losses (and that's only because they showed a minimal amount of restraint). That's what his whole arg…

That's pretty much what happens when you attack your stronger neighbor, go on a rape/execution/beheading/burning spree, then run away to embed in your civilian population who cannot enter your 400 miles of tunnels, which could have defended them

The Palestinians through years of Israeli reinforcements have chosen Hamas, an organization that thinks that sacrificing them all is beneficial, and it is actually partially working for them on international opinion.

Unfortunately both sides now needs to pay for their choices

Re: Deep Zionism

#19

Post by throw310822 »

richardfeynman wrote: post #12
artninja1988 wrote: post #3

Agree with Peter Woit's reply to Aaronson's post. From the article: Given the ever more obvious case that genocide is going on in Gaza, I had been thinking that Scott Aaronson’s going quiet on the issue meant that he was starting to realize that this had become indefensible. Turns out I was very wrong. In his latest blog posting, he explains that the current situation in Gaza is analogous to an evil murderer kidnappi…

The population of Gaza has increased during the war. Roughly 60k deaths and roughly 103k births, using the UN statistics of 150 births per day in Gaza.

The statistics of 150 births/day in Gaza are from 2023- is it clear to you that the population now is undernourished, forced to flee from place to place, their homes demolished and their relatives dead or injured? Life expectancy in Gaza plummeted from 75 years to around 40.

And how do you even know that there have been 60k deaths in Gaza? That number is likely a vast underestimate.

Re: Deep Zionism

#20

Post by throw310822 »

breppp wrote: post #18
throw310822 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author is very clear that he considers Israel being "the victim" despite the fact that it is the illegal occupier of parts of Palestine, and that the disproportion in military power between it and its supposed "tormentor" it's so huge that they have razed its entire region to the ground suffering minimal military losses (and that's only because they showed a minimal amount of restraint). That's what his whole arg…

That's pretty much what happens when you attack your stronger neighbor, go on a rape/execution/beheading/burning spree, then run away to embed in your civilian population who cannot enter your 400 miles of tunnels, which could have defended them The Palestinians through years of Israeli reinforcements have chosen Hamas, an organization that thinks that sacrificing them all is beneficial, and it is actually partially…

I think you didn't get my comment. They didn't attack their stronger neighbour. They attacked their invader and occupier- the one that has been attacking, massacring, colonising, annexing, blockading, and generally making their life impossible for the past 80 years.
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