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Undisclosed financial conflicts of interest in DSM-5 (2024)

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Re: Undisclosed financial conflicts of interest in DSM-5 (2024)

#11

Post by qualeed »

dlcarrier wrote: post #3

When the APA elected Philip Zimbardo, creator of the infamous Stanford Prison Experiment ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment#Cri... ), as their president ( https://www.apa.org/about/governance/president/bio-philip-zi... ) they lost my trust. He came up with a hypothesis on human behavior, then did everything he could to force the data to reflect that, including coercing volunteers into torturin…

The DSM-5 is from the "American Psychiatric Association".

Phillip Zimbardo, and the link you linked to, are the "American Psychological Association".

These are two different associations.

Theresa Miskimen is the president of the American Psychiatric Association, not Zimbardo.

Re: Undisclosed financial conflicts of interest in DSM-5 (2024)

#12

Post by mapontosevenths »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #7
mapontosevenths wrote: post #6

Sometime in the early 2000's we passed a point where more than 50% of the population had an AXIS 2 or higher chemical disorder[1]. It was around this point that I became skeptical of the DSM. If the majority of people are crazy, it's likely that our definition of "crazy" needs work. That said, the situation isn't as dire as some folks with a vested interest would have you believe... If you're reading this and you're…

What is an Axis II chemical disorder? I'm fairly certain that Axis II was personality disorders and intellectual disabilities in the DSM IV. 70% of people 60 years of age and older have high blood pressure[1], 50% of men regardless of age. Does this mean that our definition of high blood pressure needs work? I'm not arguing that the DSM is perfect, but it's possible for something to be bad and also common. But I appr…

>I'm fairly certain that Axis II was personality disorders and intellectual disabilities in the DSM IV.

You are 100% correct, I thought personality disorders and typed chemical disorders for some reason. I'll leave the mistake so the thread makes sense.

> Does this mean that our definition of high blood pressure need work?

I think there's a difference between a disorder that is defined mechanistically and a disease that is only defined relatively. For example, if you're missing an arm, or at huge risk of stroke that's fairly obvious. However, if you are less happy than average, and more than 50% are also less happy then average... something is wrong with the math.

*EDIT* To make matters worse I should have said Axis 1 instead of 2. This is what I get for trying to remember a 20+ year old reference without citing it.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/...

Re: Undisclosed financial conflicts of interest in DSM-5 (2024)

#13

Post by richgroot »

So these folks are implying that the rework of the DSM-4 into DSM-5 was tainted in some way by association of the authors with pharma or other industries? Do I understand that correctly?

Is there an example that anyone has pointed to where DSM-5 could have been written differently, to the detriment of a commercial enterprise? (What little I've read in the DSM-5 is enough to leave one with glazed eyes.)

Re: Undisclosed financial conflicts of interest in DSM-5 (2024)

#14

Post by readthenotes1 »

I wonder how much of the DSM is based on loose correlations, non-replicated or fraudulent research.

I get the feeling that we understand how our brains work about as well as we understand how well mitochondria work - - and I see reports of new findings on mitochondria fairly regularly...

Re: Undisclosed financial conflicts of interest in DSM-5 (2024)

#15

Post by antithesizer »

qualeed wrote: post #11
dlcarrier wrote: post #3

When the APA elected Philip Zimbardo, creator of the infamous Stanford Prison Experiment ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment#Cri... ), as their president ( https://www.apa.org/about/governance/president/bio-philip-zi... ) they lost my trust. He came up with a hypothesis on human behavior, then did everything he could to force the data to reflect that, including coercing volunteers into torturin…

The DSM-5 is from the "American Psychiatric Association". Phillip Zimbardo, and the link you linked to, are the "American Psychological Association". These are two different associations. Theresa Miskimen is the president of the American Psychiatric Association, not Zimbardo.

[flagged]

Re: Undisclosed financial conflicts of interest in DSM-5 (2024)

#16

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

mapontosevenths wrote: post #12
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is an Axis II chemical disorder? I'm fairly certain that Axis II was personality disorders and intellectual disabilities in the DSM IV. 70% of people 60 years of age and older have high blood pressure[1], 50% of men regardless of age. Does this mean that our definition of high blood pressure needs work? I'm not arguing that the DSM is perfect, but it's possible for something to be bad and also common. But I appr…

>I'm fairly certain that Axis II was personality disorders and intellectual disabilities in the DSM IV. You are 100% correct, I thought personality disorders and typed chemical disorders for some reason. I'll leave the mistake so the thread makes sense. > Does this mean that our definition of high blood pressure need work? I think there's a difference between a disorder that is defined mechanistically and a disease t…

Ok, so we're on the same page as to what we're referring to, but, to be clear, that 50% claim is incorrect[1], it's much lower than that.

Who is claiming that more than 50% of people are "less happy than average"? That's not a disorder. I'm fairly certain that the DSM doesn't make a claim like that, does the APA? It feels straw-manish.

I know that it's hard to diagnose these more intangible issues, but they are still very important regardless. If more than 50% of people in a society were unhappy, isn't it possible that the society is making them that way and it's not something wrong with the scale?

[1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3105841/

Re: Undisclosed financial conflicts of interest in DSM-5 (2024)

#17

Post by qualeed »

antithesizer wrote: post #15
qualeed wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DSM-5 is from the "American Psychiatric Association". Phillip Zimbardo, and the link you linked to, are the "American Psychological Association". These are two different associations. Theresa Miskimen is the president of the American Psychiatric Association, not Zimbardo.

[flagged]

[flagged]

Re: Undisclosed financial conflicts of interest in DSM-5 (2024)

#18

Post by sekh60 »

alessandru wrote: post #10
dlcarrier wrote: post #3

When the APA elected Philip Zimbardo, creator of the infamous Stanford Prison Experiment ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment#Cri... ), as their president ( https://www.apa.org/about/governance/president/bio-philip-zi... ) they lost my trust. He came up with a hypothesis on human behavior, then did everything he could to force the data to reflect that, including coercing volunteers into torturin…

so ... apa ...the apa that writes the dsm-5, psychiatric disorders, the medical group, is the american PSYCHIATRIC assn. the psychologists, they never went to medical school, so despite forming an organization and many publications, have little to do with diagnostic standards for medical doctors. for clarity: THERE ARE TWO APA, the one written about in the article is not the same as the one in this comment.

There's also the American Philosophical Association.

Re: Undisclosed financial conflicts of interest in DSM-5 (2024)

#19

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

readthenotes1 wrote: post #14

I wonder how much of the DSM is based on loose correlations, non-replicated or fraudulent research. I get the feeling that we understand how our brains work about as well as we understand how well mitochondria work - - and I see reports of new findings on mitochondria fairly regularly...

The brain is certainly difficult to study, but does it not stand to reason that there should be a collection of the current understanding of how to treat things when they go wrong? No one is calling the DSM V the final, definitive, work, there's a reason it's numbered.

Re: Undisclosed financial conflicts of interest in DSM-5 (2024)

#20

Post by mapontosevenths »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #16
mapontosevenths wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm fairly certain that Axis II was personality disorders and intellectual disabilities in the DSM IV. You are 100% correct, I thought personality disorders and typed chemical disorders for some reason. I'll leave the mistake so the thread makes sense. > Does this mean that our definition of high blood pressure need work? I think there's a difference between a disorder that is defined mechanistically and a disease t…

Ok, so we're on the same page as to what we're referring to, but, to be clear, that 50% claim is incorrect[1], it's much lower than that. Who is claiming that more than 50% of people are "less happy than average"? That's not a disorder. I'm fairly certain that the DSM doesn't make a claim like that, does the APA? It feels straw-manish. I know that it's hard to diagnose these more intangible issues, but they are still…

I tried to correct myself above, and included the source this time.

The actual statistic I was misremembering says that 50.8% of people will meet the requirements for an Axis 1 or higher diagnoses before the age of 75. You're right that it's important to be accurate. Mea Culpa.

To the actual point of my wildly incorrect claim: If most people are judged to be mentally ill at some point in their life, and most of the diagnoses can only be made relative to some baseline that's deemed to be "normal", isn't that just a different way of saying that it's "normal" to be mentally ill?

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