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Do I not like Ruby anymore? (2024)

sgt.hootr.club

11–20 of 184 posts

Re: Do I not like Ruby anymore? (2024)

#11
Back when autocompletion and stuff were only available in Visual Studio/Xcode/Other bug IDEs, I was forced to use Ruby and fell in love with it. It didn't matter what I used as my editor was Sublime. But when VSCode came and language features became democratized, I never touched a type-less language again. Why should someone opt for a language with absolutely no features where one can have autocompletion, typechecking, deep data type exploration, jumping to definitions and implementations? I really think it's a bad choice of Ruby not to care for types. And well we now have Crystal which again makes me question why Ruby? And it’s a shame no language is as beautiful as Ruby, not in features choices, design elegance, balance, beauty of the syntax, joy of programming mindset, not even in the name and logo. I wished Matz rethinked this part.

Re: Do I not like Ruby anymore? (2024)

#12
It's the never ending "end"s that bother me about Ruby.

    class Mess
    def chaos(x)
        if x > 0
        [1,2,3].each do |i|
            case i
            when 1
            if i.odd?
                puts "odd"
            else
                puts "even"
            end
            when 2
            begin
                puts "trying"
            rescue
                puts "failed"
            end
            else
            puts "other"
            end
        end
        else
        puts "negative"
        end
    end
    end
Clear away all those ends and the program logic pops out. Much fresher!

    class Mess:
        def chaos(self, x):
            if x > 0:
                for i in [1, 2, 3]:
                    match i:
                        case 1:
                            if i % 2 == 1:
                                print("odd")
                            else:
                                print("even")
                        case 2:
                            try:
                                print("trying")
                            except:
                                print("failed")
                        case _:
                            print("other")
            else:
                print("negative")

Re: Do I not like Ruby anymore? (2024)

#13
I was a full-time Rubyist for a long time. I started the UK's first dedicated Ruby on Rails consultancy in 2006 before Rails was even v1.0 (IIRC the first apps I shipped back then were 0.8.6). I stuck around through the hype chain, and then started to help one employer break up a RoR monolith into micro services and adopt Java and Go (this was a mistake - we should have crafted the monolith better). I've built 4 startups as hands-on CTO with Ruby and Rails. It fed and housed me for many years.

In the last 5-7 years I've had to go in other directions. Clojure, Python, Java, even back to C and taking a look at Rust and Zig. I'm now in a role where I don't code so much, but I can see Ruby's problems - performance, the surprises, the fact it allows idiots to do idiotic things (nobody under the age of 40 should be legally allowed to monkey patch a base class or engage in meta programming).

And yet when I want to do something for me, for fun, perhaps advent of code, or a quick mock-up of something that's rolling around in my head, I reach for Ruby. Not elixir which has better runtimes, or C or Zig or Rust which has better performance, not something statically typed which leads to fewer bugs, not Python which has a huge data science community to it...

A few weeks ago I was listening to the DHH episode of the Lex Fridman podcast [0], where DHH talks about Ruby as a "luxury programming language". This matches my own experience.

When I need something to be fast, it's either because I'm dealing with a low-latency problem (and some of my side projects are very latency sensitive - 5ms can make the difference between success and failure), or because I can't afford the luxury of Ruby and Rails and the developer ergonomics.

Ruby makes things fun for the programmer. That's the point. It's beautiful to work with, even if it doesn't do all the things that all the coding books and blogs insist I should be ashamed to not have in my language.

I was slightly embarrassed to be a Ruby and RoR advocate for a while because of the brogrammer BS that emerged around both ecosystems in the 2010s. I then became very embarrassed because it wasn't as cool as a systems language like Rust or Go, or as intellectually deep as Haskell, or as hot on the ML bandwagon as Python.

But I think I don't care anymore. I'm just going to accept it for what it is, and lean into. Life's too short for "shoulds" - I'm just going to like what I like. And I like Ruby.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vagyIcmIGOQ

Re: Do I not like Ruby anymore? (2024)

#14

It's the never ending "end"s that bother me about Ruby. class Mess def chaos(x) if x > 0 [1,2,3].each do |i| case i when 1 if i.odd? puts "odd" else puts "even" end when 2 begin puts "trying" rescue puts "failed" end else puts "other" end end else puts "negative" end end end Clear away all those ends and the program logic pops out. Much fresher! class Mess: def chaos(self, x): if x > 0: for i in [1, 2, 3]: match i: c…

I mean, that's a horrific piece of Ruby that doesn't do much, and you've not indented it properly.

Of course you can get all this down to a single line with ; demarcation.

And your `.each` could use `{ ... }` syntax, just like C or Java or... you know, everything else.

But sure, whitespace is better, or whatever it is you prefer.

Re: Do I not like Ruby anymore? (2024)

#15
What looks like stagnation to Steen is actually [1] Matz’s remarkable foresight that provided stability and developer happiness.

Steen’s not wrong that Python evolved and Ruby moved slower, but he’s wrong to call Ruby stagnant or irrelevant. Just think what we've enjoyed in recent times: YJIT and MJIT massively improved runtime performance, ractors, the various type system efforts (RBS/Sorbet etc) that give gradual typing without cluttering the language etc.

Ruby’s priorities (ergonomics, DSLs, stability) are different[2] from Python’s (standardisation, academia/data). It’s a matter of taste and domain, not superiority.

[1] I'm stealing a point DHH made on Lex's podcast. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vagyIcmIGOQ

[2] I'm once again parroting DHH/Matz

Re: Do I not like Ruby anymore? (2024)

#16

I'm sort of the inverse of this author: I have always liked Python and disliked Ruby. It's true though that python has changed a lot , and it's a mixed bag IMHO. I think every language feature python has added can have a reasonable argument made for its existence, however collectively it kind of makes the language burgeon under the weight of its own complexity. "one way to do it" really hasn't been a hard goal for th…

I feel similar about "weight" in Python. Some people can really overdo it with the type annotations, wanting to annotate every little variable inside any procedure, even if as a human it is quite easy to infer its type and for the type checker the type is already clear. It adds so much clutter and at the end of the day I think: "Why aren't you just writing Java instead?" and that's probably where that notion originates from.

I used to be like that. When I did Java. I used to think to myself: "Oh neat! Everything has its place. interfaces, abstract classes, classes, methods, anonymous classes, ... everything fits neatly together."

That was before I learned more Python and realized: "Hey wait a moment, things that require me to write elaborate classes in Java are just a little bit of syntax in Python. For example decorators!" And slowly switched to Python.

Now it seems many Java-ers have come to Python, but without changing their mindset. Collectively they make it harder to enjoy using Python, because at workspaces they will mandate the most extreme views towards type annotations, turning Python into a Java dialect in some regards. But without the speed of Java. I have had feedback for a take-home assignment from an application process, where someone in all seriousness complained about me not using type annotations for what amounted to a single page of code(, and for using explanatory comments, when I was not given any guarantees of being able to talk with someone about the code - lol, the audacity).

Part of the problem is how people learn programming. Many people learn it at university, by using Java, and now think everything must work like Java. I mean, Java is honest about types, but it can also be annoying. Has gotten better though. But that message has not arrived yet at what I call the "Java-er mindset" when it comes to writing type annotations. In general languages or their type checkers have become quite good at inferring types.

Re: Do I not like Ruby anymore? (2024)

#17

I still like Ruby. 15+ years in, I find myself in the camp of not wanting it to change. 25 year old me would have been totally jazzed about the addition of namespaces in Ruby 3.5/4.0. 40 year old me wants namespaces to get off my Ruby lawn.

Doesn't Ruby essentially already have namespaces, in terms of having modules? If one has proper modules, why would one ever need an alternative, weaker, concept for referring to things?

Re: Do I not like Ruby anymore? (2024)

#18

I fully agree to the points here, even as a full time ruby lover. Jumping around different languages over the past 10 years really shows staleness in Ruby as a language, even if the ecosystem tries to keep up. The ergonomics of ruby still have me very much liking the language as it fits how I think, but there are a lot of good developments in the usual neighbors, and I see myself picking up both Python and JS ever mo…

Ruby fully typed would be awesome imo, but I know that goes against a lot of the fundamentals in the language. I just like the syntax and expressiveness of it, but coming from typescript, its just such a bad DX having to work in a large Ruby codebase.

Re: Do I not like Ruby anymore? (2024)

#19
post #11

Back when autocompletion and stuff were only available in Visual Studio/Xcode/Other bug IDEs, I was forced to use Ruby and fell in love with it. It didn't matter what I used as my editor was Sublime. But when VSCode came and language features became democratized, I never touched a type-less language again. Why should someone opt for a language with absolutely no features where one can have autocompletion, typecheckin…

Fully agree. Had to work in the past with ruby. Loved it but type errors during runtime where a thing and therefore I would never use ruby in production again.

I use kotlin nowadays…

Re: Do I not like Ruby anymore? (2024)

#20

I still like Ruby. 15+ years in, I find myself in the camp of not wanting it to change. 25 year old me would have been totally jazzed about the addition of namespaces in Ruby 3.5/4.0. 40 year old me wants namespaces to get off my Ruby lawn.

Doesn't Ruby essentially already have namespaces, in terms of having modules? If one has proper modules, why would one ever need an alternative, weaker, concept for referring to things?

To make sure code loaded from gems doesn’t shadow the namespace of the application.
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