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Toyota is recycling old EV batteries to help power Mazda's production line

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Re: Toyota is recycling old EV batteries to help power Mazda's production line

#11

Post by bri3d »

zhyder wrote: post #4

Neat idea to mix batteries of different age and chemistries. I've wondered why EVs couldn't do that too with some power electronics and SW. If an EV battery could have multiple such modules, it'd: 1) Make it easier to carry a cheaper lighter less-natural-resources-consuming battery most of the time. Go to some "gas station" to rent and add more modules when taking a road trip 2) Make it cheaper to replace the 1 modul…

It's quite likely that lower discharge rate requirements are a large part of what makes this system function. Batteries with different internal resistance can work reasonably well even in a naive series system at low discharge rates but absolutely will not work at high discharge rates.

Re: Toyota is recycling old EV batteries to help power Mazda's production line

#12

Post by nine_k »

zhyder wrote: post #4

Neat idea to mix batteries of different age and chemistries. I've wondered why EVs couldn't do that too with some power electronics and SW. If an EV battery could have multiple such modules, it'd: 1) Make it easier to carry a cheaper lighter less-natural-resources-consuming battery most of the time. Go to some "gas station" to rent and add more modules when taking a road trip 2) Make it cheaper to replace the 1 modul…

I suppose this has a better chance to happen in city trucks than in cars. Delivery trucks are used more heavily, owners care more about efficiency, they are bigger and taller, so they can offer easier structural options to house swappable batteries. Also, swappable batteries could make charging very fast, if a sufficient stock of batteries is kept on a charging station.

Cars could follow, but it's significantly more involved in them. In most cases, the batteries are a relatively thin layer covering the entire floor space, or similar.

Re: Toyota is recycling old EV batteries to help power Mazda's production line

#13

Post by burkaman »

bluGill wrote: post #2

had to check: toyota owns 5% of mazda which makes them the largest shareholder.

Technically a bank is a much larger shareholder (https://www.mazda.com/en/investors/stockinfo/situation/), but Mazda and Toyota have been collaborating for a long time with joint manufacturing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Toyota_Manufacturing_USA) and technology sharing. Toyota has similar arrangements with other companies like Subaru and Suzuki.

Re: Toyota is recycling old EV batteries to help power Mazda's production line

#14

Post by smileysteve »

zhyder wrote: post #4

Neat idea to mix batteries of different age and chemistries. I've wondered why EVs couldn't do that too with some power electronics and SW. If an EV battery could have multiple such modules, it'd: 1) Make it easier to carry a cheaper lighter less-natural-resources-consuming battery most of the time. Go to some "gas station" to rent and add more modules when taking a road trip 2) Make it cheaper to replace the 1 modul…

Re: 1, ignoring the complexities, is really interesting but depending on the effort to change our battery banks quickly makes renting a car more feasible.

And this highlights American traffic and sparseness.

- plug-in hybrids have 10-13 mile range which is great for running a few errands (this is only slightly more feasible than in a golf cart or ebikes) - also great for last mile connectivity for mass transit n users;

- the Nissan leaf 2012 had an 80 mile range - perfect for most daily commutes in a metro area

- modern electric vehicles have 200-300+ mile range, good for weekend getaways; esp with a charge at the destination

Re: Toyota is recycling old EV batteries to help power Mazda's production line

#15

Post by kenhwang »

skhameneh wrote: post #5

This seems very bizarre given Mazda is probably the least (of all "major" manufacturers) focused on EV and electric initiatives. Mazda only had one EV, the MX-30 EV. Less than 600 of the MX-30 EV were sold in the US during its production. It was a complete flop right out of production. Mazda leadership has been notorious for pushing rotary engines and shifting further away from EV initiatives.

Mazda as a company has a very good track record of adopting green production initiatives. For example, they were one of the first to switch to water based paint to reduce VOC emissions, and specifically formulating the paint to not require heat-drying to lower energy use.

Their current stance seems to be that PHEVs are better than EVs for the environment because it better matches the driving patterns of the typical customer and charging availability, and minimizes the weight of the vehicle and production of batteries, both of which are still contribute significantly to pollution.

Re: Toyota is recycling old EV batteries to help power Mazda's production line

#16

Post by redwall_hp »

bluGill wrote: post #2

had to check: toyota owns 5% of mazda which makes them the largest shareholder.

Toyota also owns Daihatsu, which is a lesser known name in the US, but is a major maker of kei cars, which are huge in Japan and other parts of Asia.

They also own Denso, which is the second largest auto parts company.

And they partner with Subaru on some things, such as the Subaru BRZ and Toyota GR86, which are basically the same car with different badging.

Re: Toyota is recycling old EV batteries to help power Mazda's production line

#17

Post by skhameneh »

kenhwang wrote: post #15
skhameneh wrote: post #5

This seems very bizarre given Mazda is probably the least (of all "major" manufacturers) focused on EV and electric initiatives. Mazda only had one EV, the MX-30 EV. Less than 600 of the MX-30 EV were sold in the US during its production. It was a complete flop right out of production. Mazda leadership has been notorious for pushing rotary engines and shifting further away from EV initiatives.

Mazda as a company has a very good track record of adopting green production initiatives. For example, they were one of the first to switch to water based paint to reduce VOC emissions, and specifically formulating the paint to not require heat-drying to lower energy use. Their current stance seems to be that PHEVs are better than EVs for the environment because it better matches the driving patterns of the typical c…

In theory, that seems sound. In practice, there is very little information on efficiency details for vehicles like the CX-90 PHEV. At first glance, it seems other manufacturers are outperforming Mazda's PHEVs with standard hybrids.

There are so many questions this (the battery storage) raises regarding ROI and alternatives. I think it's great they're trying something, but I can't help but wonder if this will be another failed attempt on their track record.

Re: Toyota is recycling old EV batteries to help power Mazda's production line

#18

Post by skhameneh »

wallaBBB wrote: post #9
skhameneh wrote: post #5

This seems very bizarre given Mazda is probably the least (of all "major" manufacturers) focused on EV and electric initiatives. Mazda only had one EV, the MX-30 EV. Less than 600 of the MX-30 EV were sold in the US during its production. It was a complete flop right out of production. Mazda leadership has been notorious for pushing rotary engines and shifting further away from EV initiatives.

it's unrelated to the manufacturing of EVs. If any factory reaches a significant energy generation (usually this means from solar) it makes sense to look into a battery solution. It just happens to be Mazda's manufacturing plant.

The batteries are sourced from manufactured EVs. This is a later stage of the battery lifecycle that began with manufacturing of an EV.

Re: Toyota is recycling old EV batteries to help power Mazda's production line

#19

Post by kenhwang »

burkaman wrote: post #13
bluGill wrote: post #2

had to check: toyota owns 5% of mazda which makes them the largest shareholder.

Technically a bank is a much larger shareholder ( https://www.mazda.com/en/investors/stockinfo/situation/ ), but Mazda and Toyota have been collaborating for a long time with joint manufacturing ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Toyota_Manufacturing_USA ) and technology sharing. Toyota has similar arrangements with other companies like Subaru and Suzuki.

That's a trust account though, they're just holding shares on behalf of fund managers or individuals. They also generally don't vote.

So for all intents and purposes, Toyota is the largest singular voting shareholder.

Re: Toyota is recycling old EV batteries to help power Mazda's production line

#20

Post by momoschili »

Loudergood wrote: post #8
momoschili wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you even read the article? It has nothing to do with producing EVs, they are using the old EV batteries to help power manufacturing facilities.

This is very bizarre because that's exactly what GP was pointing out.

seemed like they were pointing out that Mazda EV offerings are bad and that they don't worry about EV initiatives. That doesn't have much to do with studying how to put older batteries to use - EVs can be bad for many reasons.

To me it seems perfectly reasonable to try to find a way to leverage depleted EV batteries for a factory - whether or not it's producing EVs or not.

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