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The Poison Within Patriotism

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11–20 of 26 posts

Re: The Poison Within Patriotism

#11
post #3

[flagged]

Both topic complexes are about structural societal problems, yes. So called "incels" suffer from toxic masculinity traits/roles and the pressure that comes out of that; a similar, but much more out of control suffering happens for people with immigration history and nationalism.

Re: The Poison Within Patriotism

#12
post #5

>There are groups I'm not part of. This makes me sad. I want to be part of those groups. Yes, but that inherently dilutes the very conception of a group. This is pretty basic stuff. Groups must be exclusive or they have no meaning. I understand this will make some people sad and, unfortunately, that's okay. It makes me sad that I will never be Japanese. What a beautiful country. Man, am I sad. But that's alright, isn…

Is it alright? Do you live in Japan? Otherwise this comparison is pointless.

Re: The Poison Within Patriotism

#13
post #12
post #5

>There are groups I'm not part of. This makes me sad. I want to be part of those groups. Yes, but that inherently dilutes the very conception of a group. This is pretty basic stuff. Groups must be exclusive or they have no meaning. I understand this will make some people sad and, unfortunately, that's okay. It makes me sad that I will never be Japanese. What a beautiful country. Man, am I sad. But that's alright, isn…

Is it alright? Do you live in Japan? Otherwise this comparison is pointless.

Why? The premise of the post is that we're all world citizens.

Why does it matter where I live?

I need only simply desire to live somewhere and be something and my wish should be granted lest I be sad, which the Japanese must obviously take very, very seriously. They must ensure I am not sad.

In fact, the comparison is even more apt because it becomes more obviously absurd.

Re: The Poison Within Patriotism

#14
> During a group date, my date's friend wanted to go to a bar. He asked if I could get in without ID because he didn't think I was living here legally. One moment I felt like I belonged with them. The next, I was reminded that I'm not really part of the group. It made me sad to hear that question.

I'm not sure what type of self-hatred this is. Someone wants to go to a bar, unsure of the legal status of another, color plays a factor but we know nothing about their socioeconomic status or if this writer is in California, the friend of the date asks not as if he is looking for something to get the writer on but rather to make sure they won't have issues. This does not imply anything about his opinions of the writer, and seeing how he is ok with the writer's presence I doubt that this is an issue of "patriotism", it's a legal concern.

Patriotism in America is about uniting under the flag and it's values; it's not about if you are a certain color. There's a reason why we have American patriots of all races; you don't really see that too often in other places. If you don't have those values, then you aren't one of us, that's what patriotism is by definition in this country and our context.

Re: The Poison Within Patriotism

#15
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying not being able to relate to woman well is the same as being made to feel like an outsider?

It's a condition that can make one feel like an outsider.

"People are strange when you're a stranger, Faces look ugly when you're alone. Women seem wicked when you're unwanted, Streets are uneven when you're down."

Re: The Poison Within Patriotism

#16
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it alright? Do you live in Japan? Otherwise this comparison is pointless.

Why? The premise of the post is that we're all world citizens. Why does it matter where I live? I need only simply desire to live somewhere and be something and my wish should be granted lest I be sad, which the Japanese must obviously take very, very seriously. They must ensure I am not sad. In fact, the comparison is even more apt because it becomes more obviously absurd.

You are completely ignoring the lived reality of that person and compare it to some strawman fantasy argument. You are not responsible for other peoples feelings. You are responsible to act respectfully.

Re: The Poison Within Patriotism

#17
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a condition that can make one feel like an outsider.

"People are strange when you're a stranger, Faces look ugly when you're alone. Women seem wicked when you're unwanted, Streets are uneven when you're down."

Exactly.

Re: The Poison Within Patriotism

#18
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? The premise of the post is that we're all world citizens. Why does it matter where I live? I need only simply desire to live somewhere and be something and my wish should be granted lest I be sad, which the Japanese must obviously take very, very seriously. They must ensure I am not sad. In fact, the comparison is even more apt because it becomes more obviously absurd.

You are completely ignoring the lived reality of that person and compare it to some strawman fantasy argument. You are not responsible for other peoples feelings. You are responsible to act respectfully.

This comment is likely a special pleading fallacy. I've already addressed the fact that someone having hurt feelings is probably not a good argument.

Re: The Poison Within Patriotism

#19
post #14

> During a group date, my date's friend wanted to go to a bar. He asked if I could get in without ID because he didn't think I was living here legally. One moment I felt like I belonged with them. The next, I was reminded that I'm not really part of the group. It made me sad to hear that question. I'm not sure what type of self-hatred this is. Someone wants to go to a bar, unsure of the legal status of another, color…

And what are the values of the flag?

Re: The Poison Within Patriotism

#20

No, this is insane. I will make a thousand people uncomfortable on group dates if that's what it takes to have an actual country. Are people hurt? Are things unfair? Would it be kinder and more humane if we could see each others' souls, and trust prevailed? Absolutely. But we can not. And there is an asymmetry to civilization---it is easier to destroy than to build. This makes division and exclusion (other names: pro…

The more I think about it the more incoherent it seems. We don’t know what the person’s immigration status is, we don’t know if they have a passport, but if they did the bouncer/bartender only cares about your birth date, not your visa. Is the author asking for the abolition of all border controls? That’s something different from patriotism.

Before 1920 there were no passports or standardization of border controls but there were also no international human rights. If your state wanted to do you in they could just do it and not face any consequences. “Genocide”, “War Crimes”, and “Crimes Against Humanity” were all introduced in the next 30 years. Any formalization of your rights requires that the state “see like a state” and document your existence. In a lot of places, like China, there are restrictions on internal migration because a rapidly industrializing country faces challenging problems in development.

Today there was a great podcast episode about the origin of human rights as we know it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/13/opinion/ezra-klein-podcas...

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