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Undefined Behavior in C and C++ (2024)

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Re: Undefined Behavior in C and C++ (2024)

#11

Post by lifthrasiir »

ViewTrick1002 wrote: post #6
fattah25 wrote: post #5

Rust here rust there. We are just talking about C not rust. Why we have to using rust. If you talking memory safety why there is no one recommends Ada language instead of rust. We have zig, Hare, Odin, V too.

> Ada language instead of rust Because it never achieved mainstream success? And Zig for example is very much not memory safe. Which a cursory search for ”segfault” in the Bun repo quickly tells you. https://github.com/oven-sh/bun/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3...

More accurately speaking, Zig helps spatial memory safety (e.g. out-of-bound access) but doesn't help temporal memory safety (e.g. use-after-free) which Rust excels at.

Re: Undefined Behavior in C and C++ (2024)

#12

Post by 01HNNWZ0MV43FF »

ykonstant wrote: post #9
imadr wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't used Rust extensively so I can't make any criticism besides that I find compilation times to be slower than C

I also hear that Async Rust is very bad. I have no idea; if anyone knows, how does async in Rust compare to async in C++?

I am yet to use async in c++, but I did work on a multi threaded c++ project for a few years

Rust is nicer for async and MT than c++ in every way. I am pretty sure.

But it's still mid. If you use Rust async aggressively you will struggle with the borrow checker and the architecture results of channel hell.

If you follow the "one control thread that does everything and never blocks" you can get far, but the language does not give you much help in doing that style neatly.

I have never used Go. I love a lot of Go projects like Forgejo and SyncThing. Maybe Go solved async. Rust did not. C++ did not even add good tagged unions yet.

Re: Undefined Behavior in C and C++ (2024)

#13

Post by lifthrasiir »

uecker wrote: post #8
VivaTechnics wrote: post #2

We switched to Rust. Generally, are there specific domains or applications where C/C++ remain preferable? Many exist—but are there tasks Rust fundamentally cannot handle or is a weak choice?

Advantages of C are short compilation time, portability, long-term stability, widely available expertise and training materials, less complexity. IMHO you can today deal with UB just fine in C if you want to by following best practices, and the reasons given when those are not followed would also rule out use of most other safer languages.

> short compilation time

> IMHO you can today deal with UB just fine in C if you want to by following best practices

In the other words, short compilation time has been traded off with wetware brainwashing... well, adjustment time, which makes the supposed advantage much less desirable. It is still an advantage, I reckon though.

Re: Undefined Behavior in C and C++ (2024)

#14

Post by mrheosuper »

VivaTechnics wrote: post #2

We switched to Rust. Generally, are there specific domains or applications where C/C++ remain preferable? Many exist—but are there tasks Rust fundamentally cannot handle or is a weak choice?

Rust can do inline ASM, so finding a task Rust "fundamentally cannot handle" is almost impossible.

Re: Undefined Behavior in C and C++ (2024)

#15

Post by ykonstant »

01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote: post #12
ykonstant wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also hear that Async Rust is very bad. I have no idea; if anyone knows, how does async in Rust compare to async in C++?

I am yet to use async in c++, but I did work on a multi threaded c++ project for a few years Rust is nicer for async and MT than c++ in every way. I am pretty sure. But it's still mid. If you use Rust async aggressively you will struggle with the borrow checker and the architecture results of channel hell. If you follow the "one control thread that does everything and never blocks" you can get far, but the language d…

Thanks for the info!

Re: Undefined Behavior in C and C++ (2024)

#16

Post by pizza234 »

VivaTechnics wrote: post #2

We switched to Rust. Generally, are there specific domains or applications where C/C++ remain preferable? Many exist—but are there tasks Rust fundamentally cannot handle or is a weak choice?

Yes, based on a few attempts chronicled in articles from different sources, Rust is a weak choice for game development, because it's too time-consuming to refactor.

Re: Undefined Behavior in C and C++ (2024)

#18

Post by ViewTrick1002 »

lifthrasiir wrote: post #11
ViewTrick1002 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ada language instead of rust Because it never achieved mainstream success? And Zig for example is very much not memory safe. Which a cursory search for ”segfault” in the Bun repo quickly tells you. https://github.com/oven-sh/bun/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3...

More accurately speaking, Zig helps spatial memory safety (e.g. out-of-bound access) but doesn't help temporal memory safety (e.g. use-after-free) which Rust excels at.

As long as you are using the "releasesafe" build mode and not "releasefast" or "releasesmall".

Re: Undefined Behavior in C and C++ (2024)

#19

Post by bluetomcat »

VivaTechnics wrote: post #2

We switched to Rust. Generally, are there specific domains or applications where C/C++ remain preferable? Many exist—but are there tasks Rust fundamentally cannot handle or is a weak choice?

Rust encourages a rather different "high-level" programming style that doesn't suit the domains where C excels. Pattern matching, traits, annotations, generics and functional idioms make the language verbose and semantically-complex. When you follow their best practices, the code ends up more complex than it really needs to be.

C is a different kind of animal that encourages terseness and economy of expression. When you know what you are doing with C pointers, the compiler just doesn't get in the way.

Re: Undefined Behavior in C and C++ (2024)

#20

Post by Defletter »

pizza234 wrote: post #16
VivaTechnics wrote: post #2

We switched to Rust. Generally, are there specific domains or applications where C/C++ remain preferable? Many exist—but are there tasks Rust fundamentally cannot handle or is a weak choice?

Yes, based on a few attempts chronicled in articles from different sources, Rust is a weak choice for game development, because it's too time-consuming to refactor.

Yup, this one (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43824640) comes to mind. The first comment says "Another failed game project in Rust", hinting that this is very common.
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