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Sweatshop Data Is Over

mechanize.work

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Re: Sweatshop Data Is Over

#11

Post by rcxdude »

losteric wrote: post #6

> Despite being trained on more compute than GPT-3, AlphaGo Zero could only play Go, while GPT-3 could write essays, code, translate languages, and assist with countless other tasks. The main difference was training data. This is kind of weird and reductive, comparing specialist to generalist models? How good is GPT3’s game of Go? The post reads as kind of… obvious, old news padding a recruiting post? We know OpenAI…

Also, the main showcase of the 'zero' models was that they learnt with zero training data: the only input was interacting with the rules of the game (as opposed to learning to mimic human games), which seems to be the kind of approach the article is asking for.

Re: Sweatshop Data Is Over

#12

Post by atrettel »

I am quite happy that this post argues in favor of subject-matter expertise. Until recently I worked at a national lab. I had many people (both leadership and colleagues) tell me that they need fewer if any subject-matter experts like myself because ML/AI can handle a lot of those tasks now. To that effect, lab leadership was directing most of the hiring (both internal and external) towards ML/AI positions.

I obviously think that we still need subject-matter experts. This article argues correctly that the "data generation process" (or as I call it, experimentation and sampling) requires "deep expertise" to guide it properly past current "bottlenecks".

I have often phrased this to colleagues this way. We are reaching a point where you cannot just throw more data at a problem (especially arbitrary data). We have to think about what data we intentionally use to make models. With the right sampling of information, we may be able to make better models more cheaply and faster. But again, that requires knowledge about what data to include and how to come up with a representative sample with enough "resolution" to resolve all of the nuances that the problem calls for. Again, that means that subject-matter expertise does matter.

Re: Sweatshop Data Is Over

#13

Post by [deleted] »

vonneumannstan wrote: post #4
jrimbault wrote: post #2

> This meant that while Google was playing games, OpenAI was able to seize the opportunity of a lifetime. What you train on matters. Very weird reasoning. Without AlphaGo, AlphaZero, there's probably no GPT ? Each were a stepping stone weren't they?

>Very weird reasoning. Without AlphaGo, AlphaZero, there's probably no GPT ? Each were a stepping stone weren't they? Right but wrong. Alphago and AlphaZero are built using very different techniques than GPT type LLMs. Google created Transformers which leads much more directly to GPTs, RLHF is the other piece which was basically created inside OpenAI by Paul Cristiano.

[deleted]

Re: Sweatshop Data Is Over

#14

Post by 9rx »

atrettel wrote: post #12

I am quite happy that this post argues in favor of subject-matter expertise. Until recently I worked at a national lab. I had many people (both leadership and colleagues) tell me that they need fewer if any subject-matter experts like myself because ML/AI can handle a lot of those tasks now. To that effect, lab leadership was directing most of the hiring (both internal and external) towards ML/AI positions. I obvious…

> I am quite happy that this post argues in favor of subject-matter expertise

The funny part is that it argues in favour of scientific expertise, but at the end it says they actually want to hire engineers instead.

I suppose scientists will tell you that has always been par for the course...

Re: Sweatshop Data Is Over

#15

Post by 9rx »

jimbo808 wrote: post #10
jrimbault wrote: post #2

> This meant that while Google was playing games, OpenAI was able to seize the opportunity of a lifetime. What you train on matters. Very weird reasoning. Without AlphaGo, AlphaZero, there's probably no GPT ? Each were a stepping stone weren't they?

Google Brain invented transformers. Granted, none of those people are still at Google. But it was a Google shop that made LLMs broadly useful. OpenAI just took it and ran with it, rushing it to market... acquiring data by any means necessary(!)

> OpenAI just took it and ran with it

As did Google. They had their own language models before and at the same time, but chose different architectures for them which made them less suitable to what the market actually wanted. Contrary to the above claim, OpenAI seemingly "won" because of GPT's design, not so much because of the data (although the data was also necessary).

Re: Sweatshop Data Is Over

#16

Post by Sevii »

It's still too early but at some point we are going to start to see infra and frameworks designed to be easier for LLMs to use. Like a version of terraform intended for AI. Or an edition of the AWS api for LLMs.

Re: Sweatshop Data Is Over

#17

Post by ethan_smith »

jrimbault wrote: post #2

> This meant that while Google was playing games, OpenAI was able to seize the opportunity of a lifetime. What you train on matters. Very weird reasoning. Without AlphaGo, AlphaZero, there's probably no GPT ? Each were a stepping stone weren't they?

Agreed - AlphaGo/Zero's reinforcement learning breakthroughs were foundational for modern AI, establishing techniques like self-play and value networks that influenced transformer architecture development.

Re: Sweatshop Data Is Over

#18

Post by Animats »

(Article is an employment ad.)

Is that actually true. Is the mini-industry of people looking at pictures and classifying them dead? Does Mechanical Turk still get much use?

Re: Sweatshop Data Is Over

#19

Post by getnormality »

It's interesting to compare this to the new third generation benchmarks from ARC-AGI, which are essentially a big collection of seemingly original puzzle video games. Both Mechanize (OP) and ARC want AI to start solving more real-world, long-horizon tasks. Mechanize wants to get AI working directly on real software development, while ARC suggests a focus on much simpler IQ test-style tasks.

Re: Sweatshop Data Is Over

#20

Post by lawlessone »

atrettel wrote: post #12

I am quite happy that this post argues in favor of subject-matter expertise. Until recently I worked at a national lab. I had many people (both leadership and colleagues) tell me that they need fewer if any subject-matter experts like myself because ML/AI can handle a lot of those tasks now. To that effect, lab leadership was directing most of the hiring (both internal and external) towards ML/AI positions. I obvious…

Without the actual SME's they'll be flying blind not knowing where the models get things wrong.

Hopefully nothing endangers people..

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