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Rising graduate joblessness is mainly affecting men

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Re: Rising graduate joblessness is mainly affecting men

#11

Post by yieldcrv »

mdorazio wrote: post #8
PaulHoule wrote: post #2

If woman really are getting paid less for the same work as men wouldn't employers do the arbitrage of hiring women instead of men?

In general, women get paid the same as men, within the error of measurement, and have for many years. The trope of women making less than men comes from an apples to oranges comparison. Women choose less lucrative careers, leave the workforce more often to care for children, and care more about work-life balance. The result is that on average across the workforce, women make less. But if you look at an individual car…

Additionally, many women are not mimicking their competition in how the career ladder is approached.

There is a fear of coming across as too assertive within the organization she is already employed in.

What’s understated is that plenty of men come across as too cocky too and get passed up within the organization and at other organizations.

But some men, with the societal incentive to get ahead, continues aiming higher at other organizations with the same playbook, and enough of them find the organization that is indexing for that attitude.

I dont have a way to quantify this behavior by gender, I frequently see women not considering it though, overindexed on getting the promotion in the org and navigating that.

The competition doesn’t care about their perception at the place they are already employed, and are aiming on getting offers all the time for leverage.

Re: Rising graduate joblessness is mainly affecting men

#12

Post by _qbxi »

mdorazio wrote: post #8
PaulHoule wrote: post #2

If woman really are getting paid less for the same work as men wouldn't employers do the arbitrage of hiring women instead of men?

In general, women get paid the same as men, within the error of measurement, and have for many years. The trope of women making less than men comes from an apples to oranges comparison. Women choose less lucrative careers, leave the workforce more often to care for children, and care more about work-life balance. The result is that on average across the workforce, women make less. But if you look at an individual car…

> Women choose less lucrative careers

"Choose" is perhaps technically true, but misleading. Women are generally pressured out of lucrative careers.

Remember that programming started as a woman-dominated field (due to perceived proximity to typing as the fundamental skill), which is how so many pioneers and influential figures ended up being women (Grace Hopper, Margaret Hamilton). Women were ultimately pushed out as the field gained perceived prestige.

Re: Rising graduate joblessness is mainly affecting men

#13

Post by yieldcrv »

williamdclt wrote: post #9
yieldcrv wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all noticed it was just impoverished and uneducated young women blaming their incompetency on the wage gap and patriarchal influences, while really all other women in their age range had closed it to the extent that they are even making up for the women that drag the wages down Its pretty impressive overall, but extremely funny watching some women be left behind and not even know it

"We all noticed" except the people gathering actual data of course. https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor... shows disparities in skilled trades: in fact _more_ disparity in skilled trades. For example 15% gap for developers. But I'm glad you "noticed" something different, problem solved then. > extremely funny Regardless of the reality of the gender pay gap, this is a disgusting attitude.

I responded to an article about the 18-24 age range, your source is not segmented that way. let me know when you have counterpoints to that

The amusement comes from what the uneducated women wind up doing and how they rationalize it. Mansplaining is out, laughter is in.

Re: Rising graduate joblessness is mainly affecting men

#14

Post by slg »

mdorazio wrote: post #8
PaulHoule wrote: post #2

If woman really are getting paid less for the same work as men wouldn't employers do the arbitrage of hiring women instead of men?

In general, women get paid the same as men, within the error of measurement, and have for many years. The trope of women making less than men comes from an apples to oranges comparison. Women choose less lucrative careers, leave the workforce more often to care for children, and care more about work-life balance. The result is that on average across the workforce, women make less. But if you look at an individual car…

>Women choose less lucrative careers, leave the workforce more often to care for children, and care more about work-life balance.

Although the "choose" here needs to put into societal context. Do women naturally prefer less lucrative careers or has society reinforced that some less lucrative careers are in some way feminine while some more lucrative careers are masculine? Do women naturally want to leave the workforce and prioritize work-life balance or is that a response to society putting a majority of the parenting responsibility on their shoulders?

Re: Rising graduate joblessness is mainly affecting men

#15

Post by lstamour »

mdorazio wrote: post #8
PaulHoule wrote: post #2

If woman really are getting paid less for the same work as men wouldn't employers do the arbitrage of hiring women instead of men?

In general, women get paid the same as men, within the error of measurement, and have for many years. The trope of women making less than men comes from an apples to oranges comparison. Women choose less lucrative careers, leave the workforce more often to care for children, and care more about work-life balance. The result is that on average across the workforce, women make less. But if you look at an individual car…

Isn’t it possible though, that if a role is gender stereotyped or if senior managers are a particular gender, that those of the other gender might need to prove themselves more to get the same job? That managers tend to hire people who appear to fit in, which usually means they are more like themselves, or those who already have the job? Also, it seems weird to suggest that only women have the failings you’ve noted, as men can also have the same shortcomings. In a way, this entire discussion is really highlighting that while some get hired, some do not, and somehow blames those who do not get hired as failures who should not get hired rather than as disadvantaged individuals due to circumstances partly or fully beyond their control.

An interesting point about choosing to leave the workforce to care for children is that re-entry into the workforce or even the ability to work and care for children is something a social net could be established to support. If we have networks that allow army recruits to enter the workforce after their service, we could do the same for parents, but instead social nets seem to devalue the act of raising children, maybe because they are driven too much by short term profit. Taxpayers accept that too, preferring tax breaks for families with children over support networks and job opportunities to re-enter the workforce full-time. One imagines it again is about hiring those like you - managers hiring individuals who worked from home are unlikely to have worked from home - they needed the time in industry to become experienced managers.

Edit: upon rereading my last comment, it is possible that work from home norms established under covid might be the best thing to happen to stay at home parents and their continued full time employment. This could then boost the number of relatively younger parents who could continue in the workforce after mat leave while also providing child care. But it’s not a replacement for better social nets and better social norms.

Re: Rising graduate joblessness is mainly affecting men

#16

Post by im3w1l »

_qbxi wrote: post #12
mdorazio wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, women get paid the same as men, within the error of measurement, and have for many years. The trope of women making less than men comes from an apples to oranges comparison. Women choose less lucrative careers, leave the workforce more often to care for children, and care more about work-life balance. The result is that on average across the workforce, women make less. But if you look at an individual car…

> Women choose less lucrative careers "Choose" is perhaps technically true, but misleading. Women are generally pressured out of lucrative careers. Remember that programming started as a woman-dominated field (due to perceived proximity to typing as the fundamental skill), which is how so many pioneers and influential figures ended up being women (Grace Hopper, Margaret Hamilton). Women were ultimately pushed out as…

This doesn't match what I experienced growing up in the 90's. What I saw saw was girls not wanting to involve themselves with computing because it was seen as nerdy and boring and for weird people. Only when people started realizing how much FAANG's paid and how nice the benefits were did they start feeling they wanted to get in on that. Those are just my personal observations though.

Re: Rising graduate joblessness is mainly affecting men

#17

Post by chowells »

yieldcrv wrote: post #5
khelavastr wrote: post #3

[flagged]

> Increasingawlesaness Come again?

Eh, that's an easy typo to make on a phone when you're used to autocorrect getting things right. Sometimes you miss when it doesn't.

That's not the incoherent part of GP, which is the part where they somehow seem to believe women are favored (?!) by current power structures and that favor will increase as those structures turn towards might-makes-right policies.

Re: Rising graduate joblessness is mainly affecting men

#19

Post by steveBK123 »

mdorazio wrote: post #8
PaulHoule wrote: post #2

If woman really are getting paid less for the same work as men wouldn't employers do the arbitrage of hiring women instead of men?

In general, women get paid the same as men, within the error of measurement, and have for many years. The trope of women making less than men comes from an apples to oranges comparison. Women choose less lucrative careers, leave the workforce more often to care for children, and care more about work-life balance. The result is that on average across the workforce, women make less. But if you look at an individual car…

I think it's not an either-or problem, but a mix. Most of the effect does appear to be job choice, which is driven by degree choice, which is driven by earlier education / coaching by teachers, parents, etc.

However, In my experience my female colleagues doing similar things are generally under-compensated BUT, and this is a big BUT.. they also are less aggressive in asking for money. I have had this discussion with my wife, and every few years she does work up the energy to have the "give me more money" discussion with her boss, which is almost always followed by a best-in-years % raise at next compensation cycle.

I coach some of my former junior colleagues too and the women are generally paid a little bit less than their peer male coworkers, but also their reaction to this injustice is a lot less "I'm marching into my bosses office Monday morning and demanding a raise" than a male in the same seat would have.

And then yeah there's also some lingering biases.

If I had to make up some % allocation for pay differentials that I've seen, it's probably - 50% job choice / 40% career management / 10% bias. But who knows.

Re: Rising graduate joblessness is mainly affecting men

#20

Post by supriyo-biswas »

yieldcrv wrote: post #11
mdorazio wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, women get paid the same as men, within the error of measurement, and have for many years. The trope of women making less than men comes from an apples to oranges comparison. Women choose less lucrative careers, leave the workforce more often to care for children, and care more about work-life balance. The result is that on average across the workforce, women make less. But if you look at an individual car…

Additionally, many women are not mimicking their competition in how the career ladder is approached. There is a fear of coming across as too assertive within the organization she is already employed in . What’s understated is that plenty of men come across as too cocky too and get passed up within the organization and at other organizations. But some men, with the societal incentive to get ahead, continues aiming hig…

> But some men, with the societal incentive to get ahead, continues aiming higher at other organizations with the same playbook, and enough of them find the organization that is indexing for that attitude.

At a previous employer, I had skip levels who apparently only made disparaging statements in public settings (and only in public settings, they’d dismiss it lightly if you tried to discuss said feedback in private settings) involving their indirect reports; this was their apparent way of ruling with an iron fist so that they come across as effective managers and have more projects directed towards them by the leadership.

Even as a man, it was everything I never wanted to become; I can completely see why women, who generally pursue (or at least try to maintain the impression of) collaborative relationships often want to do nothing with it.

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