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Junior Roles Aren't Going Away

iamcharliegraham.substack.com

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Re: Junior Roles Aren't Going Away

#11

Post by grahac »

Avicebron wrote: post #7

r/LinkedInLunatics is leaking again. That said I'm glad this founder is able to micromanage his AI, they sound like a very problematic person to actually work with as an engineer, and if screaming into the void of AI means he is no longer sending vague poorly worded demands, I guess that alone might be worth it

LOL. AI is currently like a mid-level average to good engr who can write good code but ocassionally goes off the rails. Any engr on a team with those characteristics would be heavily vetted in reviews. Almost like a smart CS intern.

If AI was amazing senior level engr, it would be a different story.

Re: Junior Roles Aren't Going Away

#12

Post by grahac »

stalfosknight wrote: post #9
grahac wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah right now that's certainly true. But my belief is those companies will soon realize that some of the people who they thought were junior are pretty adept at AI management - more adept than the senior people. And that skill will suddenly be more in demand than how well you can code an optimized sorting algorithm. Some will get there faster than others of course. But AI is changing things so quickly that it may ha…

I don't mean right now, I mean going as far back as 2018 at least when I had to go through a brutal slog over many months to get my first gig as a new software dev. I eventually ended up in a midlevel role and had to grow into it (I still feel like I found a Willy Wonka golden ticket). But it is infuriating to see people suggest that there is such a thing as junior level positions and that companies actually want to…

Totally fair. Sorry you had to go through that.

Yeah the joke is companies want to hire someone who is already an expert in that role who is curious and a fast learner, without realizing that if someone is already an expert who is curious and a fast learner, they probably want a different role to grow into.

Re: Junior Roles Aren't Going Away

#13

Post by coolThingsFirst »

A large chunk of junior roles have vanished. Tech is neither a lucrative nor an interesting career anymore.

Prompting until you get a somewhat working solution is boring af. I dont want to tell an LLM what to code i want to do it myself. In every bullet point he has the AI word in it.

Re: Junior Roles Aren't Going Away

#14

Post by Anelya »

Your take on outdated university curricula totally hits the bulls eye here. We gotta revamp academic programs to match the fast-paced industry tech development and new trends. Junior roles are key, we just changed what the jr role needs to do - prompt, check, re-run, verify... but we need fresh grads ready to crush it with cutting-edge skills.

Re: Junior Roles Aren't Going Away

#15

Post by zihotki »

alistairSH wrote: post #8
stalfosknight wrote: post #4

This is bullshit. Junior roles have already been extinct for quite a long time now. No place that's hiring will give you the time of day until you already have the word "Senior" in your title. But no one can explain where Seniors are supposed to come from though.

We have a floor full of interns right now. Our India and Mexico offices do as well. Some of them will probably be offered full-time roles. I hired a junior engineering a few years ago. And have done every few years for about a decade. I work at a mid-size, PE-owned company that's been around for 50+ years, that operates in the enterprise SaaS space. Junior roles aren't going anywhere. But, the expectations of those j…

We, at a large Dutch bank, also do have 20+ interns but 0 positions for them in IT department. Leadership is projecting that if you do well in internship then you'll be hired. But no interns were hired in last 2 years...

Re: Junior Roles Aren't Going Away

#16

Post by stalfosknight »

zihotki wrote: post #15
alistairSH wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a floor full of interns right now. Our India and Mexico offices do as well. Some of them will probably be offered full-time roles. I hired a junior engineering a few years ago. And have done every few years for about a decade. I work at a mid-size, PE-owned company that's been around for 50+ years, that operates in the enterprise SaaS space. Junior roles aren't going anywhere. But, the expectations of those j…

We, at a large Dutch bank, also do have 20+ interns but 0 positions for them in IT department. Leadership is projecting that if you do well in internship then you'll be hired. But no interns were hired in last 2 years...

That is a great example of the kind of bullshit I'm talking about.

How exactly are people supposed to reach a senior level if they aren't allowed to be junior developers first?

Re: Junior Roles Aren't Going Away

#17

Post by stalfosknight »

grahac wrote: post #12
stalfosknight wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean right now, I mean going as far back as 2018 at least when I had to go through a brutal slog over many months to get my first gig as a new software dev. I eventually ended up in a midlevel role and had to grow into it (I still feel like I found a Willy Wonka golden ticket). But it is infuriating to see people suggest that there is such a thing as junior level positions and that companies actually want to…

Totally fair. Sorry you had to go through that. Yeah the joke is companies want to hire someone who is already an expert in that role who is curious and a fast learner, without realizing that if someone is already an expert who is curious and a fast learner, they probably want a different role to grow into.

I don't mean to shit on your article. I think the general gist of it is correct; what it means to be a software developer is going to radically change for all levels, not just we mere mortals without the magical word "Senior" in our titles. Being fluent in prompting and supervising AI agents are going to be more of the day to day than cranking out lines of code.

I'm just (I think justifiably) a little salty because not that long ago LEARN TO CODE!!! was the mantra for those who wanted to step up into a middle class life and now every executive and their mother is frothing at the mouth over shoehorning AI into anything and everything and pulling up what little of the career ladder exists while they're at it.

Re: Junior Roles Aren't Going Away

#18

Post by RyanOD »

I don't understand how anyone can get to the level where they "understand programming basics, architecture, and what good code looks like" without years of grinding code, collaborating, research, mistakes, refactoring, etc.

To me, the idea that a Junior Developer would understand CS at that level or get there without writing code every day for a very long time seems highly unlikely.

What am I not understanding?

Re: Junior Roles Aren't Going Away

#19

Post by Pet_Ant »

Anelya wrote: post #14

Your take on outdated university curricula totally hits the bulls eye here. We gotta revamp academic programs to match the fast-paced industry tech development and new trends. Junior roles are key, we just changed what the jr role needs to do - prompt, check, re-run, verify... but we need fresh grads ready to crush it with cutting-edge skills.

Universities aren't job training. Universities are for getting foundational academic skills. You can use that to get a great foundation for applied knowledge, but that's not what they are for. Universities are measured by publications.

During my internship my placement suggested on the feedback form at the end of term a focus on more upcoming skills like Flash, Silverlight, and Aero. 3 years ago we'd be telling students to learn blockchain. My education, which included foundational aspects like OS, ended up being more important when containers came around, even when it was "obvious" that Windows was the only OS anyone will use now.

Universities are higher level foundations just like elementary and high school. Not job training. Best course is to get you four year, and then take a year or two for bootcamps and/or community college to get whatever is currently hot and disposable.

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