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Hymn to Babylon, missing for a millennium, has been discovered

phys.org

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Re: Hymn to Babylon, missing for a millennium, has been discovered

#11

Post by treve »

idoubtit wrote: post #8
wglb wrote: post #2

Source article in the journal Iraq: https://www.cambridge.org/core/product/identifier/S002108892...

Thank you. Without this source, it's hard to separate the facts from the bullshit in what was posted on phys.org. I'm not a scholar, just an amateur, but two sentences were strikingly ridiculous. "Legend has it that Noah hid them here from the floodwaters before boarding the ark." This article is supposed to be popular science about Babylonian archaeology, why mix it with a Hebrew myth derived from an older Mesopotam…

Legend has a specific meaning:

> A traditional story sometimes popularly regarded as historical but unauthenticated.

Even though it's BS I think it's still interesting to read how people relate to the story.

Re: Hymn to Babylon, missing for a millennium, has been discovered

#12

Post by bee_rider »

octopoc wrote: post #5

The Fall of Civilizations podcast has an interesting episode about Assyria. The cities in Mesopotamia were polytheistic and each city has its own deity. Apparently the way they viewed their deities was similar to how we view sports teams. There was an expectation that if you traveled to another city, you should sacrifice to its god. They viewed inter city warfare as the gods competing in heaven.

Polytheism seems to make a lot more sense that way. Cities (and personal trajectories as well) have ups and downs. If you understand it as a competition between various gods, it makes sense that they’d have a lot of back and forth going on. If there’s only one god, it must have some preposterously convoluted plan, it just seems a bit silly.

Re: Hymn to Babylon, missing for a millennium, has been discovered

#13

Post by jollyllama »

octopoc wrote: post #5

The Fall of Civilizations podcast has an interesting episode about Assyria. The cities in Mesopotamia were polytheistic and each city has its own deity. Apparently the way they viewed their deities was similar to how we view sports teams. There was an expectation that if you traveled to another city, you should sacrifice to its god. They viewed inter city warfare as the gods competing in heaven.

The Hebrew view may not have been so different [0] and in turn this view is congruent with Christian teaching, depending on the theology.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Council#Hebrew/Israelit...

Re: Hymn to Babylon, missing for a millennium, has been discovered

#14

Post by jschveibinz »

jollyllama wrote: post #13
octopoc wrote: post #5

The Fall of Civilizations podcast has an interesting episode about Assyria. The cities in Mesopotamia were polytheistic and each city has its own deity. Apparently the way they viewed their deities was similar to how we view sports teams. There was an expectation that if you traveled to another city, you should sacrifice to its god. They viewed inter city warfare as the gods competing in heaven.

The Hebrew view may not have been so different [0] and in turn this view is congruent with Christian teaching, depending on the theology. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Council#Hebrew/Israelit...

This is most likely correct. I'm not sure why you were downvoted. Many scholars trace the earliest worship of Yahweh to the southern Levant, possibly Edom, Midian, or Seir which were outside of traditional Canaanite (early Hebrews) centers. Inscriptions from 800 BC refer to “Yahweh of Samaria” and “Yahweh of Teman,” implying a localized deity.

So given that Assyria is in the same geographic region as the Levant, the comment makes sense in context.

Re: Hymn to Babylon, missing for a millennium, has been discovered

#15

Post by mlinhares »

jschveibinz wrote: post #14
jollyllama wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Hebrew view may not have been so different [0] and in turn this view is congruent with Christian teaching, depending on the theology. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Council#Hebrew/Israelit...

This is most likely correct. I'm not sure why you were downvoted. Many scholars trace the earliest worship of Yahweh to the southern Levant, possibly Edom, Midian, or Seir which were outside of traditional Canaanite (early Hebrews) centers. Inscriptions from 800 BC refer to “Yahweh of Samaria” and “Yahweh of Teman,” implying a localized deity. So given that Assyria is in the same geographic region as the Levant, the…

Catholicism maintains it somehow by having "patron saints" and every city picking one up. Most cities in highly Catholic countries will have their own specific saint that they will have a special relationship with.

Re: Hymn to Babylon, missing for a millennium, has been discovered

#16

Post by metalman »

idoubtit wrote: post #8
wglb wrote: post #2

Source article in the journal Iraq: https://www.cambridge.org/core/product/identifier/S002108892...

Thank you. Without this source, it's hard to separate the facts from the bullshit in what was posted on phys.org. I'm not a scholar, just an amateur, but two sentences were strikingly ridiculous. "Legend has it that Noah hid them here from the floodwaters before boarding the ark." This article is supposed to be popular science about Babylonian archaeology, why mix it with a Hebrew myth derived from an older Mesopotam…

the "Hymm's of Innana" are more than a bit interesting, as it shows(clearly) that Innana was the original riot girl goddess who gets whatever she wants...daddy made the universe and none of the "rules" apply to her, well except, that she does get pensive when her latest boy toy wanders. Not that suddenly catesrophic things dont then happen to said boy, previously praised for bieng "like a young bull". Especialy interesting are the number of occasions where she breaks into songs of praise for her "galla"......... quite clear that the tavern culture of the times was much like our own

Re: Hymn to Babylon, missing for a millennium, has been discovered

#17

Post by zdragnar »

octopoc wrote: post #5

The Fall of Civilizations podcast has an interesting episode about Assyria. The cities in Mesopotamia were polytheistic and each city has its own deity. Apparently the way they viewed their deities was similar to how we view sports teams. There was an expectation that if you traveled to another city, you should sacrifice to its god. They viewed inter city warfare as the gods competing in heaven.

I have vague memories from college about China having something similar during the dynasties.

The hierarchical government on earth, with the emperor on top down through layers of bureaucracy down to officials in villages was a mirror of the organization of the heavens. Villages would have their own deities and might go so far as to replace them after bad years of flooding or other weather. That was more of an outlier, though, as usually the emperor or government got the blame first.

Re: Hymn to Babylon, missing for a millennium, has been discovered

#18

Post by cogman10 »

octopoc wrote: post #5

The Fall of Civilizations podcast has an interesting episode about Assyria. The cities in Mesopotamia were polytheistic and each city has its own deity. Apparently the way they viewed their deities was similar to how we view sports teams. There was an expectation that if you traveled to another city, you should sacrifice to its god. They viewed inter city warfare as the gods competing in heaven.

Some of this is visible in the Bible.

For example, Moses needing to keep his hands up to win a battle (Ex 17). Or his battles with the Egyptian gods.

From what I've read, it's believed that the Hebrews emerged from multiple people's groups combining and unifying their beliefs. El, YHWH, and Baal were all different deities merged into one as the people groups unified. That's why some of the biblical stories like the creation and the flood have earlier references from older people's groups.

The evolution of monotheism was much more about keeping a large diverse people group united.

You can see a historic parallel to how that played out with the formation of the Roman pantheon. Mostly stolen stories and ideas from the Greek pantheon tweeked to fit the empire.

Re: Hymn to Babylon, missing for a millennium, has been discovered

#19

Post by jollyllama »

mlinhares wrote: post #15
jschveibinz wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is most likely correct. I'm not sure why you were downvoted. Many scholars trace the earliest worship of Yahweh to the southern Levant, possibly Edom, Midian, or Seir which were outside of traditional Canaanite (early Hebrews) centers. Inscriptions from 800 BC refer to “Yahweh of Samaria” and “Yahweh of Teman,” implying a localized deity. So given that Assyria is in the same geographic region as the Levant, the…

Catholicism maintains it somehow by having "patron saints" and every city picking one up. Most cities in highly Catholic countries will have their own specific saint that they will have a special relationship with.

Can't have a power vacuum on the Divine Council, gotta put one of your guys in when you take over!

Re: Hymn to Babylon, missing for a millennium, has been discovered

#20

Post by atoav »

bee_rider wrote: post #12
octopoc wrote: post #5

The Fall of Civilizations podcast has an interesting episode about Assyria. The cities in Mesopotamia were polytheistic and each city has its own deity. Apparently the way they viewed their deities was similar to how we view sports teams. There was an expectation that if you traveled to another city, you should sacrifice to its god. They viewed inter city warfare as the gods competing in heaven.

Polytheism seems to make a lot more sense that way. Cities (and personal trajectories as well) have ups and downs. If you understand it as a competition between various gods, it makes sense that they’d have a lot of back and forth going on. If there’s only one god, it must have some preposterously convoluted plan, it just seems a bit silly.

Well also in polytheism gods were displayed as incredibly flawed.
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