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You People Keep Contradicting Yourselves

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Re: You People Keep Contradicting Yourselves

#11

Post by happymellon »

givemeethekeys wrote: post #4

I’d restate the sex work argument as: Why should someone who thinks sex work be decriminalized be automatically be thrown into the feminist camp?

> Oh, you think sex work should be decriminalized? I was under the impression you feminists thought sex work was exploitative?

They aren't mutually exclusive. I can think that sex work is exploitive and at the same time not want sex workers to go to jail.

In the same way I can think drugs are bad, but locking up drug abusers is also bad.

It doesn't solve any problems and people I view as victims are the ones getting punished.

Re: You People Keep Contradicting Yourselves

#13

Post by potholereseller »

Good post. I've definitely experienced this, though a sub-form of it, namely my non-conformance to a sterotype of an ideology I am associated with. The example in TFA doesn't appear to involve any stereotypes, because Bailey is talking about people in general. [0]

> hypocrisy by association

You had it right in your title and elsewhere in your post. Bailey isn't accusing Khetan of hypocrisy, which is a difference between one's words and one's actions; the example in TFA is about a difference between a group's words and an individual's words, which is contradiction; actions-vs-words is not being discussed. It's also not self-contradiction, since Bailey isn't accusing Khetan of contradicting his own earlier statements. [1]

This reminds of the phrase, "stay in your lane": "stay in" here means "speak according to a certain viewpoint"; and "your lane" is the beliefs of some group. "Stop disagreeing with people similar to you," is a ludicrous thing to say. It's even more ludicrous when "people similar to you" is "people in general"; there's billions of "people in general"; that group disagrees on every topic known to man and dog.

"Contradicting humanity" wouldn't sound pithy, but that's what Bailey is accusing Khetan of doing. To your point, Bailey is accusing Khetan of "contradicting your group", which is undoubtedly a form of the Association Fallacy. [2]

Bailey is also engaging in performative contradiction, by demanding that Khetan agree with "people in general", while Bailey is not himself agreeing with "people in general", because that is an impossible task.

[0] Applying a stereotype to all people would be absurd, since a stereotype is about a sub-category of people; a stereotype is meant to highlight alleged differences between categories of people; to highlight the differences between A and A would be absurd -- there are none.

[1] Yes, Khetan is a member of "people in general", but Bailey is comparing Khetan's words to the words of "people in general minus Khetan" -- instance versus class-minus-that-instance. Okay, maybe Bailey isn't thinking that deeply about this, hence why TFA needed to be written.

[2] I could have lead with this, but I don't have enough time to re-write this.

Re: You People Keep Contradicting Yourselves

#14

Post by dataflow »

Whoa, hold on. You're engaging in a worse version of exactly what you're accusing others of.

> Do you see the problem? Rob Bailey is calling Bhavye Khetan a hypocrite because Bhavye Khetan said something that contradicts something that "people" say.

Nobody called anybody a hypocrite (nor implied it for that matter) - you entirely put those words in his mouth. All he said was that people have a common complaint that contradicts what this person is complaining about. The implication is simply that VCs have contradictory demands placed on them, so they can't fully satisfy them all. If anything, that guy was asking for people to have some sympathy for VCs who are actually willing to have a call -- not trying to smear anyone as a hypocrite!

And I point this out specifically to illustrate how unrealistic it is to expect people to avoid making assumptions that might be wrong. It's normal and human to make common assumptions -- that's how progress is made without slowing everything down to a crawl. You're not immune to it any more than anybody else. The solution to being wrong isn't to always avoid making assumptions and beat people up who do so; it's to be reasonable in doing so, and to also be more generous on the receiving side and try to understand the point they were trying to make better.

Re: You People Keep Contradicting Yourselves

#15

Post by rcxdude »

potholereseller wrote: post #13

Good post. I've definitely experienced this, though a sub-form of it, namely my non-conformance to a sterotype of an ideology I am associated with. The example in TFA doesn't appear to involve any stereotypes, because Bailey is talking about people in general. [0] > hypocrisy by association You had it right in your title and elsewhere in your post. Bailey isn't accusing Khetan of hypocrisy, which is a difference betw…

>This reminds of the phrase, "stay in your lane": "stay in" here means "speak according to a certain viewpoint"; and "your lane" is the beliefs of some group

What? 'stay in your lane' means some variant of 'don't comment on stuff you don't know about' or 'mind your own business', it's got nothing to do with speaking in unity with a group.

Re: You People Keep Contradicting Yourselves

#16

Post by scrubs »

Social media makes it possible --- indeed there is a payoff for doing so --- to take extreme positions that most would not do face to face.

Getting a rise out of people is now ends to means. Getting recognition for outing a perceived flaw in other is ends for means. And it's all boils down to shadow boxing in a cage of symbolism measured by likes/followers.

Push back online drives ads, looks, traffic. Talking #^=×@@ or BSing a person face to face may not work or be attempted due to real world consequences.

Tribal modalities online in the large or niche sense is just a conventional way of doing it because it's auto magnifying. Why take a shot at one VC when you can take at shot at all VCs?

Re: You People Keep Contradicting Yourselves

#19

Post by cedilla »

happymellon wrote: post #11
givemeethekeys wrote: post #4

I’d restate the sex work argument as: Why should someone who thinks sex work be decriminalized be automatically be thrown into the feminist camp?

> Oh, you think sex work should be decriminalized? I was under the impression you feminists thought sex work was exploitative? They aren't mutually exclusive. I can think that sex work is exploitive and at the same time not want sex workers to go to jail. In the same way I can think drugs are bad, but locking up drug abusers is also bad. It doesn't solve any problems and people I view as victims are the ones getting…

Also; most sex work as it happens is exploitative, but there is no reason why sex work must necessarily be exploitative. Criminalising sex work makes it far more likely that sex work is exploitative. So there is really no contradiction at all.

(Though as nations where sex work is legal show: decriminalisation is not sufficient to make most sex work non-exploitative)

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