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Eurorack Knob Idea

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Re: Eurorack Knob Idea

#11

Post by diggan »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #6

It's interesting. I haven't been sucked into the Eurorack thing though — do people want not just patch cables all over their mixing desk but knobs as well? Eurorack (and modular synths in general) seem like funny things. Like guitar pedals, I sense there are a lot of enthusiasts that do a lot more tinkering than actually playing them. Watching Rick Beato and guests on YouTube ... seems like a lot of musicians are loo…

> It's interesting. I haven't been sucked into the Eurorack thing though — do people want not just patch cables all over their mixing desk but knobs as well?

I don't personally feel the need of wanting more cables all over my current setup, but sometimes I have had the feeling of "Oh if I could just modulate the VCF Cutoff on my Zen Delay with a patch cable from my modular instead of doing it manually" for some of the desktop units I have next to the modular.

And on the other side, I've also felt the need of having some of the patch holes replaced by knobs, so I could just twist and turn it to evaluate if I want to modulate it, instead of having to actually setup the patch. I could see something like this knob-idea being very useful for that, basically prototyping patches.

> I sense there are a lot of enthusiasts that do a lot more tinkering

This is definitely true, large parts of the community is about tinkering more than making music. But the same is true for programming, large parts of the community is not about problem solving, but coding. That's fine, we all have different motivations :)

What I found really useful (for myself at least) is to try to connect with people who are artists first, who just happen to be using modular synths, rather than finding people tinkering with modular synths who don't actually produce/perform music.

> I haven't been sucked into the Eurorack thing though

Good for you :) A friend pulled me into this dark abyss a month ago. Lots of fun, so many distractions, but lots of fun. Helps that Barcelona (where I live) have a lively community around modular synths as well. It is expensive though, and VCVRack doesn't come close to providing the same experience.

Re: Eurorack Knob Idea

#12

Post by buescher »

This is so cool and so clever I'm in awe, really. I'm grinning from ear to ear looking at this and jealous I didn't think of it. But the problem it solves is not quite one that anyone has. What does it offer over a built-in knob with a jack that overrides it beside compactness? A knob that's not designed for feel that you can misplace?

There's a miniature case study in thinking about innovation here. This is what the germ of a really neat idea looks like but you have to keep going and that's hard.

Re: Eurorack Knob Idea

#13

Post by pakue »

diggan wrote: post #9
scottapotamas wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might enjoy https://github.com/scottbez1/smartknob The complexity of this approach (ignoring the display and flair) unfortunately means you won’t see this used too often due to cost.

That's so cool on so many levels, and I really enjoyed that indeed, now I have to fight the urge to try to build it myself, good thing it's weekend. However, it does seem to miss the single most useful feature (for me) which is the resistance part. I understand there is a DC motor controlling the snap points and whatnot, but what I'd like is constant resistance I guess, to a configurable level, rather than snapping t…

Should be doable to add that. The BLDC needs to add a proportional (or any other function) force against the rotation direction until it reaches 0.

Re: Eurorack Knob Idea

#14

Post by spankalee »

Wouldn't it be more universally compatible to have a powered knob that outputs a adjustable constant control voltage? You'd probably want trim adjustments on it too.

Yes, there'd be an extra wire to the power supply module, but that seems fine for a modular.

Re: Eurorack Knob Idea

#15

Post by bondarchuk »

JKCalhoun wrote: post #6

It's interesting. I haven't been sucked into the Eurorack thing though — do people want not just patch cables all over their mixing desk but knobs as well? Eurorack (and modular synths in general) seem like funny things. Like guitar pedals, I sense there are a lot of enthusiasts that do a lot more tinkering than actually playing them. Watching Rick Beato and guests on YouTube ... seems like a lot of musicians are loo…

Maybe they are tinkering, but sounds still come out while they are tinkering. So maybe they're playing music after all? The idea that if you're not recording and releasing tracks you're doing it "wrong" is a bit silly IMO. Just strumming a guitar or playing some chords on a piano without recording any of it was always an "acceptable" hobby and not considered "unmusical", playing with synths and sequencers is no different IMO.

Re: Eurorack Knob Idea

#16

Post by diggan »

pakue wrote: post #13
diggan wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's so cool on so many levels, and I really enjoyed that indeed, now I have to fight the urge to try to build it myself, good thing it's weekend. However, it does seem to miss the single most useful feature (for me) which is the resistance part. I understand there is a DC motor controlling the snap points and whatnot, but what I'd like is constant resistance I guess, to a configurable level, rather than snapping t…

Should be doable to add that. The BLDC needs to add a proportional (or any other function) force against the rotation direction until it reaches 0.

Sounds reasonable, wonder how that would actually feel in real life? As far as I understand, this would pass through digital parts, adding a little bit of (maybe noticeable) latency, but I wonder if the latency gets high enough for it to be a bit jarring that the resistance is dynamically changing as you apply torque.

Re: Eurorack Knob Idea

#17

Post by adolph »

scottapotamas wrote: post #7
diggan wrote: post #3

Interesting idea for sure, but how is the feel of actually turning the knob? Seems to offer short to no resistance, which would make fast but precise movements pretty hard, something that is important for things like performances. What would be a huge bonus point (but maybe unrealistic? I don't quite understand how the current implementation actually works) would be software-configurable resistance (physical, not ele…

You might enjoy https://github.com/scottbez1/smartknob The complexity of this approach (ignoring the display and flair) unfortunately means you won’t see this used too often due to cost.

A differently complex and smaller approach might be to combine the knob with with an axial flux PCB-BLDC, like what Carl Bugeja made [0, 1]. It might be suited to get haptics in something as small as the article's knob, although to get an in-built display you'd have to use one of those displays that fit in lego bricks [2, 3] with a slip-ring.

0. https://microbots.io/products/motorcell

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVszJMlvZcA

2. https://github.com/AncientJames/uGrey

3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pUV_3qeHog

Re: Eurorack Knob Idea

#18

Post by weinzierl »

scottapotamas wrote: post #7
diggan wrote: post #3

Interesting idea for sure, but how is the feel of actually turning the knob? Seems to offer short to no resistance, which would make fast but precise movements pretty hard, something that is important for things like performances. What would be a huge bonus point (but maybe unrealistic? I don't quite understand how the current implementation actually works) would be software-configurable resistance (physical, not ele…

You might enjoy https://github.com/scottbez1/smartknob The complexity of this approach (ignoring the display and flair) unfortunately means you won’t see this used too often due to cost.

My dream is a piano keyboard with entirely software controlled mechanical key response. Every key individually mounted on a servostepper. As a bonus it could be used as a fake player piano. Or for practice you could make the wrong keys hard to press. Endless possibilities.

Re: Eurorack Knob Idea

#19

Post by Q6T46nT668w6i3m »

weinzierl wrote: post #18
scottapotamas wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might enjoy https://github.com/scottbez1/smartknob The complexity of this approach (ignoring the display and flair) unfortunately means you won’t see this used too often due to cost.

My dream is a piano keyboard with entirely software controlled mechanical key response. Every key individually mounted on a servostepper. As a bonus it could be used as a fake player piano. Or for practice you could make the wrong keys hard to press. Endless possibilities.

Great idea and I’m shocked this doesn’t exist.

Re: Eurorack Knob Idea

#20

Post by CamperBob2 »

buescher wrote: post #12

This is so cool and so clever I'm in awe, really. I'm grinning from ear to ear looking at this and jealous I didn't think of it. But the problem it solves is not quite one that anyone has. What does it offer over a built-in knob with a jack that overrides it beside compactness? A knob that's not designed for feel that you can misplace? There's a miniature case study in thinking about innovation here. This is what the…

As he mentions in the video, the whole motivation is compactness. When your panel looks like https://learningmodular.com/the-eurorack-expansion-project/ , every mm^2 matters.

I'd be tempted to eliminate the patch cord altogether by using one of those pushbutton pots. Normally it would act like a traditional pot, but if you push it, it would go into a mode where you could choose from a variety of nearby inputs wirelessly.

The LEDs next to the pot would need to be an OLED display that indicates the selected input. Some form of extremely lightweight mesh network for control connections would need to exist, something with very low bandwidth and short range but also low latency. After 5 or 10 years' worth of tinkering, it might actually synthesize some sounds.

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