"A woman described how on Tuesday Israeli forces "started to fire phosphorus bombs against the people" Please. Since when is a civilian woman a reliable source of information on weaponry? Gimme a break! Bad journalism. What else could one expect from the Guardian?
Evidence emerges of Israeli use of phosphorus weapons in Gaza
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Re: Evidence emerges of Israeli use of phosphorus weapons in Gaza
#12Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are lots of important stories in the world, and each has its place depending on the news stream.
Sometimes stories become big enough that they spill out of their ordinary stream. For example, there is a stream of news about Ebola fever that under normal circumstances is read mainly by infectious disease specialists. But if there is a really big Ebola outbreak somewhere, that starts to be relevant to everyone. What's happening in Gaza now seems pretty serious.
Serious things have been happening in that part of the world for more than 2000 years, and will continue to happen long after we're all dead. I think they are given ample coverage on other sites, and there are plenty of other forums to discuss them on the internet.
Or, put another way, say this site had some hawkish Israeli users and some Hamas-oriented Palistinians. Wouldn't it be nice if here, they could just stick to peacefully discussing the things this site is about, rather than getting sucked into an endless, fruitless discussion, which is what 99% of discussions about that area are?
Re: Evidence emerges of Israeli use of phosphorus weapons in Gaza
#13This sort of story is important; I don't care if we call this "Hacker News" or not. [edit]: If you disagree, reply .
There are lots of important stories in the world, and each has its place depending on the news stream.
Re: Evidence emerges of Israeli use of phosphorus weapons in Gaza
#14This sort of story is important; I don't care if we call this "Hacker News" or not. [edit]: If you disagree, reply .
It's important, certainly, but do you really think anyone here is not aware of what's happening in Gaza? So then, the only value of reporting this would be to create an interesting discussion - but on a topic so politically inflammatory no useful discussion will come out of this community, and no one will alter their behaviour in a way that will make any difference whatsoever to this conflict.
Re: Evidence emerges of Israeli use of phosphorus weapons in Gaza
#15Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are lots of important stories in the world, and each has its place depending on the news stream.
Well this story does touch upon a potential chemical being used and its effects - if you're looking for a yc news slant
Or not.
Re: Evidence emerges of Israeli use of phosphorus weapons in Gaza
#16Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well this story does touch upon a potential chemical being used and its effects - if you're looking for a yc news slant
Sweet, let's start discussing whether white phosphorous could be a good basis for an online start-up. Or not.
That's why its named changed from startup news into hacker news (I still remember complaining to pg about the name change - though now I've changed my mind)
What's wrong with discussing a chemical? We've been doing that a long time already on hacker news
one more edit: another thing that hacker news brings is a dif perspective on an issue (as opposed to just flame wars like on other sites - I guess I am an idealist at heart)
have you ever seen war/military geekery? http://exiledonline.com/the-day-americas-empire-died/ (I'd post the Gaza article but it has some graphic images - though the content is very balanced / impartial - imo)
Re: Evidence emerges of Israeli use of phosphorus weapons in Gaza
#17The only international convention which may regulate the use of White Phosphorus is Protocol III of the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, however as WP is designed primarily to be used as a smoke-generating agent it falls under Section 1(b)(i) of the Protocol for most uses, which states: (b) Incendiary weapons do not include:
(i) Munitions which may have incidental incendiary effects, such as illuminants, tracers, smoke or signalling systems;
If used as an incendiary weapon, other restrictions in the Protocol might apply. These include a prohibition on using WP as an incendiary weapon directly against civilians or by air-dropped shells against military targets in heavily civilian areas. But again, this does not apply when WP is used as a smoke-generating agent and it's perfectly legal to use WP as either a smoke-generating agent or an incendiary weapon against military targets if they are not located within heavy concentrations of civilians, such as in an open field.
Israel (along with the US) is not a signatory to Protocol III of the CCW and so it's not subject to its restrictions in any case, but the IDF's military manuals instruct its soldiers to abide by its restrictions voluntarily. Thus far, there hasn't been any evidence that Israel has used it as anything other than a smoke-generating agent, which is absolutely necessary in this kind of urban fighting, or that it has intentionally been used as an incendiary weapon against civilians. In fact, the particular shell Israel uses (the US-made M825A1) is remarkable for having a much slower fall-time through the air than WP weapons of old like those used heavily in WWII, so it provides sufficient time for people to get out of its way and makes it a lot less effective as a weapon.
So all indications are that Israel's use of White Phosphorus is well within the accepted and legally-permissible bounds that govern its use. That does not mean that groups like HRW should not keep a strict eye on the IDF's use of it in case there are transgressions and targeted attacks on civilians, but it does mean that we need to stop this ridiculous tendency to regard any use of WP as an illegal and barbaric action. It's a legitimate weapon with legitimate uses and NGOs and the media should recognise that.
As an aside, the International Solidarity Movement used as a source by the Guardian is hardly an impartial source, having long been linked to Hamas and supportive of that organisation. Any video, witness interviews and photographs released by the ISM should be regarded as immediately suspect unless corroborated by other sources.
Re: Evidence emerges of Israeli use of phosphorus weapons in Gaza
#18"A woman described how on Tuesday Israeli forces "started to fire phosphorus bombs against the people" Please. Since when is a civilian woman a reliable source of information on weaponry? Gimme a break! Bad journalism. What else could one expect from the Guardian?
Take a look at this Creative Commons documentary by AlJazeera (forget their bias, just look at the facts presented by authorities in the video): http://cc.aljazeera.net/asset/language/english/gaza-white-ph...
Summary of clip:
Israeli bombing with bombs of white flames. Children’s playing with the phosphorus fires from the bombs burning. Women speaking about the bombs being dropped and the burns it has caused. Young man with burnt wounds. Man in hospital. Doctor Medhath Abbas speaking. Israeli bombing with flames. Marc Garlasco speaking about the use of white phosphorus. Voxpops. Wide view of bombs bein used. Women crying. Fumes from the bombs dropped. Children playing with the flames of phosphorus. Aymen Mohyeldin PTC
Re: Evidence emerges of Israeli use of phosphorus weapons in Gaza
#19Earlier quoted context omitted.
Quite. WP weapons are very distinctive; the explosion they make doesn't look like anything else and they leave chemical traces. It would be easy for any investigator to bring back conclusive evidence if there were any. Incidentally we used WP (grenades) during GW1.
I have seen photos of WP being used against enemy soldiers in Vietnam. It's quite a unique explosion, indeed. Interesting that WP was used in GW1. Hadn't WP and Napalm been banned before 1991? I will believe in newspapers when they produce photos of WP being used against civilians in Gaza. Until then, it's nothing but fog of war, bad journalism and propaganda to me.
Re: Evidence emerges of Israeli use of phosphorus weapons in Gaza
#20White Phosphorus is not a banned substance, nor is there anything obviously illegal about Israel's use of it in this conflict. It's certainly not a chemical weapon or any other sort of WMD, despite what some of the more breathless reporting would imply. The only international convention which may regulate the use of White Phosphorus is Protocol III of the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, however as WP is d…