Live data from Hacker News

Honest and Elitist Thoughts on Why Computers Were More Fun Before

datagubbe.se

11–20 of 45 posts

Re: Honest and Elitist Thoughts on Why Computers Were More Fun Before

#11
The piece resonated with me a lot—the idea that things were better back before computers became mainstream—right up until they identified the key date where things fell apart as 1995. At that point I had to take a step back and reevaluate the whole thing, because for me the equivalent date was 2014, 20 years later.

I missed the very early years of computing, but for me the heyday was the Flash years. I got a copy of Flash and I felt like I could do anything—all the cool games were built by the same tool that I had installed on my computer, and my budding programming skills were like black magic to my friends and family. It was a superpower. Meanwhile, the internet in those days was small and populated mostly by smart and interesting people gathered in small-to-medium sized phpBB servers. The rise of Facebook and smartphones spelled the end of that era, and everything since then has been shallow and hollow by comparison as the internet began catering for the lowest common denominator.

That said, now I'm stuck reevaluating my perspective on all that. For this author, my own golden age was after the fall of theirs. I was part of the wave of users who had it too easy—the upstarts who intruded on the good thing they had going.

There are two broad explanations I can think of for this:

1. Computing has been declining since the 90s and my golden age was genuinely less good than the author's.

2. Each generation gets cranky and nostalgic with age, and this is just another case of "back in my day".

The modern internet feels so genuinely terrible that I can't help but think it must be #1, but #2 is such a common cognitive bias that I can't really dismiss it either.

Re: Honest and Elitist Thoughts on Why Computers Were More Fun Before

#12

The piece resonated with me a lot—the idea that things were better back before computers became mainstream—right up until they identified the key date where things fell apart as 1995. At that point I had to take a step back and reevaluate the whole thing, because for me the equivalent date was 2014, 20 years later. I missed the very early years of computing, but for me the heyday was the Flash years. I got a copy of…

>Meanwhile, the internet in those days was small and populated mostly by smart and interesting people gathered in small-to-medium sized phpBB servers.

The hurdle to get online kept a lot of people offline.

The hurdle to get online and post is so, so low nowadays that most of the Internet is just garbage.

I'm not saying there aren't gems out there. Just that "bad" has gotten more prevalent because creating has become so easy.

Re: Honest and Elitist Thoughts on Why Computers Were More Fun Before

#13
This could be written about a lot of things and it's still not true. Radios were more fun when people had to buy their own transistors and solder it all together themselves. Cars were more fun when the engine was simple enough to take apart and rebuild with a wrench set and a couple screwdrivers.

Oh, wait, you can still do these things. Not with every car or radio out there, but it's still accessible and not even crazy expensive to get into.

Computers are still fun even if you're not building it from a kit and can't study the connections across 4500 or so transistors to almost completely understand your microprocessor. And if those are the things that make it fun for, you can still do it. No one is stopping you. Enjoy yourself, stop wishing for a thing that hasn't actually disappeared to come back.

Re: Honest and Elitist Thoughts on Why Computers Were More Fun Before

#14
post #10

> It's simple, but controversial: Computers were more fun when they weren't for everyone. There, I said it. Yes, it is controversial for people who do not immediately see what is wrong with it. This is a very efficient way of letting the reader know that the person has problems, without saying so directly. Sure, it is honest, but it reflects very badly on the character, and that is why it is "controversial" (not real…

This is such a weird victimhood take.

Small communities do well because they aren't for everyone. That's how like minded people find each other. That's what subcultures are. By definition they aren't for everyone.

You don't have to be offended by everything.

Re: Honest and Elitist Thoughts on Why Computers Were More Fun Before

#15

Perhaps this gent needs to buy a Rasperry Pi or an Arduino starter kit and project book. That pretty much checks all his boxes for an inexpensive, technically documented, understandable, hardware-exposed, text-mode, resource-limited, off-line capable computer. It has all the fun hackable qualities of the Apple //e of my youth, except you can buy one for less than $50 instead of the month an a half worth of salary tha…

What I've noticed(as someone relatively active around retro hardware communities) is that the users sort into demographics with rather conflicting goals:

* I want to run Linux, or CP/M, or a particular version of Basic, or something else with existing software.

* I want to recompile existing C code to the new hardware

* I want to directly control the hardware with the most minimal kinds of OS layer, and probably using assembly, not C.

* The challenges of the hardware are part of my motives for using this platform

* I want to work within a certain retro aesthetic and I don't mind adding more hardware or leaning on other people's code to get there

So in practice, users tend to arrive in waves according to what developments have happened on that platform previously: neo-retro micro designs released in the past few years like X16, Agon, or Neo6502 first attract people doing the essential hardware bringup tasks. Then they settle in to a cycle of incremental porting and toolchain construction. Gradually the platform becomes understood well enough to do some decent applications. The whole while, everything you wanted to do on the device would be accomplished more readily by using a commodity Linux box, but part of the appeal is in having control over the details.

When we use computers to be productive we're usually giving up a lot of the details to software packages and dependencies that are poorly understood by the larger software world and have become the defacto thing everyone uses simply because no equal to them exists. In the time when the retro stuff was actually new, there was a lot of anticipation for those tasks becoming possible someday, but they weren't yet, and that characterized computing as unrealized potential instead of a dull, opaque reality.

Re: Honest and Elitist Thoughts on Why Computers Were More Fun Before

#16
Maybe this applies to the Internet more than computers. There's still plenty of gatekeeping to go around and you can thank phones and tablets for that. If you're not between the ages of 20 and 40 give or take, then computers must seem plenty mysterious.

Re: Honest and Elitist Thoughts on Why Computers Were More Fun Before

#17

> Computers were more fun when they weren't for everyone Or maybe you were just younger? It's not like subcultures don't exist anymore - older people just don't know how to enter them. And it'll happen to us eventually as well. And if we're honest, the democratization of technology was a net positive globally - there have been plenty of negatives like social media but a lot of positives as well like Digital Public In…

he actually lists that as one of his main bullet points:

Old gits like yours truly [were] younger back then.

Re: Honest and Elitist Thoughts on Why Computers Were More Fun Before

#18
Knowing a little bit of computing used to put you far ahead.

Now, we have plenty of programmers of all skill ranges, many of whom are really not at all notably useful with computers in any way other than hacking out apps.

There's some truth to the idea that computers were more fun when they were opt in things! When they weren't everywhere, when everything didn't depend utterly on them!

But I also think that we haven't meaningfully distilled out modern computing power effectively. Few of us are signifcantly more powerful computer enjoyers than we were, and if anything the blackbox mature of apps & the shift of more and more computing away from the Personal Computer to the great Data Keeps in the Cloud, where we have zero ability to touch or see, has demoralized & deinspired & de-potentiated baseline humans from where we were two decades ago.

My hope is malleable software workspaces, better general systems where we can see the various ambient digital matter around us & start gluing together scripts & libraries. On the one hand there's good efforts like Node-RED or n8n on open source (which is long term probably a must). But just watching Gemini on the phone follow down the chatbot path, of trying to be a coordinator, able to hook into APIs offered by apps to control & orchestrate them: that integrative function of systems scripting systems has been utterly forsaken for the 30 year interregnum of the Application Uber Alles. Agency has been stagnant at best (waning hard), but we're in various ways starting to look more integratively at computing, and that has to mean more than the black boxes we users have been trapped inside of. Opening the doors of possibility again after so long, having a userodm that can steer themselves & do more & craft things again is exciting as heck.

See of course Barefoot developers & home cooked software. Critically, I'd say it is framed in the old mindset of individual isolated bits of software, misses how computing is now compelled again to open its interfaces & let the outsider in via MCP, but it very much is about a re-empowered age of software & computing, an age of more open potential. https://maggieappleton.com/home-cooked-software https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40633029 (322 points, 10 months ago, 173 comments)

Re: Honest and Elitist Thoughts on Why Computers Were More Fun Before

#19

The piece resonated with me a lot—the idea that things were better back before computers became mainstream—right up until they identified the key date where things fell apart as 1995. At that point I had to take a step back and reevaluate the whole thing, because for me the equivalent date was 2014, 20 years later. I missed the very early years of computing, but for me the heyday was the Flash years. I got a copy of…

>The modern internet feels so genuinely terrible

The enshitification is real, but I would attribute that to being hijacked by advertising platforms.

Social media algorithms are literally derived from algorithms for showing relevant ads, and as a result you must be "identified" anywhere you go.

Two easy solutions for a better experience:

1. Don't use any sites that use algorithms exclusively (e.g. no Facebook, use Youtube subscriptions rather than the front page, etc.) 2. Don't use sites that require you to login unless there is clear value in doing that (e.g. you can browse Reddit without logging in if you don't intend to comment, etc.)

Re: Honest and Elitist Thoughts on Why Computers Were More Fun Before

#20
post #4

Sub-cultures need gatekeeping. Not for elitism, but to simply keep them alive. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September

There are subcultures that are permanently so, and there are subcultures that come out of the shadows and into the mainstream. Home Computing (and the BBS networks, and Usenet, and AOL and Compuserve, et. al.) were a "hobby" that merely mimicked government and corporate use of Big Iron, and they mimicked and updated predecessor social networks, and as such, Home Computing was eventually destined to marry with Big Iron and they met in the middle, penetrating the Consumer Market with devices.

It was up to computer hobbyists to refine that consumer appeal. Computer hobbyists could often be men who used computers at work, enjoyed it kinda, or just took their work home with them. My father built a Heathkit component stereo for our home, and it was a full-fledged higher-than-consumer-quality system. While he did not build computers like his son built computers, it was his contact with electronics and gadgets at work that primed him for that ease of use, and his enthusiast's hobbies such as DXing the radio waves. And learning from him, I first learned about computers and electronics at home, and then at school, and I ultimately parlayed it all into a series of jobs in I.T. and Cybersecurity.

I was also a member of the Goth subculture. Now there's something that occasionally lends to the mainstream (who doesn't like "Nightmare Before Christmas"?) but mainstream kids won't all go Goth because Goth is just one choice among many, and it's usually rebellious and dark, and there are other kids with other tastes. And Goth culture may appeal more to young adults who may grow out of it.

Also, religion can be counter-cultural, or subcultures can form around religious faith and spirituality. And there's plenty of examples. And the plurality of it all means that while Christianity can be mainstream, it's never ubiquitous. Computers and the Internet have the sort of consumer power to make everyone wish that everyone else had them. And so the corporate world will not rest until computers are more ubiquitous and more mainstream than Jesus.

Post reply on HN