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Oda Ujiharu: Why the ‘weakest Samurai warlord’ is admired

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Re: Oda Ujiharu: Why the ‘weakest Samurai warlord’ is admired

#11

Post by jmuguy »

kybernetikos wrote: post #5
taneq wrote: post #3

Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times. This guy is all of those men, like 10 times over.

This is such a dumb saying. Good times are created by weak people working together to defeat strong people. Most hard times are created by "Strong Men" fighting each other. Just take a look around the world - is it countries under the sway of warlords that have the best times? Or is it countries where the institutions are stronger than the individuals, where rulers have been limited or deposed by groups of individual…

Another way of reading the saying is that the weak men are weak mentally, they're cruel and inept. So maybe outwardly "strong"... but not really.

Re: Oda Ujiharu: Why the ‘weakest Samurai warlord’ is admired

#12

Post by stormfather »

kybernetikos wrote: post #5
taneq wrote: post #3

Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times. This guy is all of those men, like 10 times over.

This is such a dumb saying. Good times are created by weak people working together to defeat strong people. Most hard times are created by "Strong Men" fighting each other. Just take a look around the world - is it countries under the sway of warlords that have the best times? Or is it countries where the institutions are stronger than the individuals, where rulers have been limited or deposed by groups of individual…

I don't see how anyone can look at the generation that survived the great depression, and look at boomers/millenials/gen Z and not see the truth of it

Re: Oda Ujiharu: Why the ‘weakest Samurai warlord’ is admired

#13

Post by os2warpman »

taneq wrote: post #3

Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times. This guy is all of those men, like 10 times over.

Hard times create broken men with PTSD who sleep with a gun under their pillow while slowly drinking themselves to death.

In this case, Ujiharu lost and died penniless with his family held as hostages.

Re: Oda Ujiharu: Why the ‘weakest Samurai warlord’ is admired

#14

Post by stronglikedan »

kybernetikos wrote: post #5
taneq wrote: post #3

Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times. This guy is all of those men, like 10 times over.

This is such a dumb saying. Good times are created by weak people working together to defeat strong people. Most hard times are created by "Strong Men" fighting each other. Just take a look around the world - is it countries under the sway of warlords that have the best times? Or is it countries where the institutions are stronger than the individuals, where rulers have been limited or deposed by groups of individual…

> This is such a dumb saying.

It can be aptly applied throughout history, so while maybe not the best word choice, the spirit of the message can't be dumb.

Re: Oda Ujiharu: Why the ‘weakest Samurai warlord’ is admired

#16

Post by salomonk_mur »

stronglikedan wrote: post #14
kybernetikos wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a dumb saying. Good times are created by weak people working together to defeat strong people. Most hard times are created by "Strong Men" fighting each other. Just take a look around the world - is it countries under the sway of warlords that have the best times? Or is it countries where the institutions are stronger than the individuals, where rulers have been limited or deposed by groups of individual…

> This is such a dumb saying. It can be aptly applied throughout history, so while maybe not the best word choice, the spirit of the message can't be dumb.

Can it? What "bad times" were created by weak men? To me it seems most if not all bad times are just "strong men" taking advantage of that strength to take from others in one way or another and hence causing conflict or economic woes.

Re: Oda Ujiharu: Why the ‘weakest Samurai warlord’ is admired

#17

Post by salomonk_mur »

stormfather wrote: post #12
kybernetikos wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a dumb saying. Good times are created by weak people working together to defeat strong people. Most hard times are created by "Strong Men" fighting each other. Just take a look around the world - is it countries under the sway of warlords that have the best times? Or is it countries where the institutions are stronger than the individuals, where rulers have been limited or deposed by groups of individual…

I don't see how anyone can look at the generation that survived the great depression, and look at boomers/millenials/gen Z and not see the truth of it

The generation that survived the great depression, caused the great depression. If they were strong as you imply how could they cause bad times?

Dumb phrase.

Re: Oda Ujiharu: Why the ‘weakest Samurai warlord’ is admired

#18

Post by somenameforme »

kybernetikos wrote: post #5
taneq wrote: post #3

Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times. This guy is all of those men, like 10 times over.

This is such a dumb saying. Good times are created by weak people working together to defeat strong people. Most hard times are created by "Strong Men" fighting each other. Just take a look around the world - is it countries under the sway of warlords that have the best times? Or is it countries where the institutions are stronger than the individuals, where rulers have been limited or deposed by groups of individual…

You don't understand the saying. If you want to find some of the most anti-war people there are, speak to veterans who have lived through such. If you want to find some of the most pro-war people there are, talk to people who have never experienced the consequences of such. Out of curiosity I just looked up 'us warmonger political advisor guy' because his named temporarily escaped me, and search delivered - John Bolton. [1]

I wanted to see his history because it's just about always the same - and yeah, good ole Yale grad who was a draft dodger getting his college deferment then immediately getting a national guard position to avoid conscription. For those that may not understand the latter - National Guard units were basically never deployed, extremely difficult to enlist in, and basically worked as a means for the well connected to avoid service. Bush, Cheney, Biden, Trump, Clinton, and all of them - draft dodgers, often using similar tricks.

It has nothing to do with political systems. There have been great times under dictatorial systems and horrible times under democracies. It has to do with weak people trying to be strong, which drives chaos. Maybe it could be framed up succinctly in that the "hard decisions" are indeed hard for strong men, but for weak mean they happily make them without the briefest of hesitation, though of course they'll put on a solemn face for the cameras.

[1] - https://search.brave.com/search?q=us+warmonger+political+adv...

Re: Oda Ujiharu: Why the ‘weakest Samurai warlord’ is admired

#19

Post by bloomingeek »

kybernetikos wrote: post #5
taneq wrote: post #3

Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times. This guy is all of those men, like 10 times over.

This is such a dumb saying. Good times are created by weak people working together to defeat strong people. Most hard times are created by "Strong Men" fighting each other. Just take a look around the world - is it countries under the sway of warlords that have the best times? Or is it countries where the institutions are stronger than the individuals, where rulers have been limited or deposed by groups of individual…

Just finished a book about the Hundred Years War, before that, one on the Thirty Years War. Both have a glaring similarity, the "weak people" were consistently plundered, raped and killed by the "strong" people.

When will the working class people understand that the elite are just a few bad decisions away from their total destruction? (Here in the US we seem to be on some kind of precipice.)

Re: Oda Ujiharu: Why the ‘weakest Samurai warlord’ is admired

#20

Post by andrewflnr »

ozgune wrote: post #4

> However, a wise man once said: “[It] ain’t about how hard you hit. It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward; how much you can take and keep moving forward.” Ujiharu may have lost Oda Castle nine times, but that means he also won it back eight times, almost always with smaller armies. His refusal to accept defeat and his iron will to get up and keep fighting is why many historians reject the “weak…

Also:

> his retainers and farmers chose to see the best in their lord and were fiercely loyal to him. During Ujiharu’s early campaigns, some of his men did defect to the enemy, but a few raids to protect or take back Oda Castle later and you apparently could not threaten or pay off anyone in Ujiharu’s service to move against him.

Personally, I have to respect someone who earns that kind of loyalty.

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