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Sony Unveils the Smallest and Lightest Lidar Depth Sensor

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Re: Sony Unveils the Smallest and Lightest Lidar Depth Sensor

#11

Post by Animats »

moralestapia wrote: post #10
solardev wrote: post #9

Wait, haven't iPhones and iPads had lidars for several years now? Aren't they much smaller? https://www.ifixit.com/products/iphone-13-pro-lidar-sensor This Sony one looks huge in comparison. Am I missing some fundamental difference between them?

My guess would be that's not "true" LIDAR. It's probably something akin to the Kinect hardware; an infrared pattern is projected, then distance is inferred depending on how it gets distorted, while LIDAR sends photons and measures them back (technically the first does that as well but w/e).

There have been Kinect sensors with true time of flight. The first Kinect used triangulation, but Microsoft switched to time-of-flight for later models.[1]

There are several ways to do this. At short ranges, they all work. Then it gets hard, because not much energy is coming back.

[1] https://arxiv.org/abs/1505.05459

Re: Sony Unveils the Smallest and Lightest Lidar Depth Sensor

#12

Post by jauntywundrkind »

thot_experiment wrote: post #7
MrLeap wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a cute package, but that resolution is wild. 24x24? I suppose it might have a place in manufacturing automation tasks. I don't know where you'd have room for one of these but no room for something like the D435 which has a resolution of 1280 × 720 on the depth side and an RGB sensor. Maybe robotic vacuum cleaners or something.

These are fundamentally different technologies, the camera you linked uses structured light and stereo vision + ML to get depth. It has an order of magnitude less range and an order of magnitude more error. The Sony sensor is time of flight SPAD, it's much closer to giving you a ground truth you can trust than the Intel camera and much more capable of rejecting environmental noise.

Indeed. Seems much more similar to Intel's RealSense L515, which was a tiny Lidar package. 1024x768@30fps, only 9m range thought; 20m/40m outdoors/indoors sounds impressive! I think mine retailed for like $300 at the time?

Am curious what the applications for this are. Is this for drones? is this for auto-focus and or auto tracking? Thinking of Insta360's new addon for their small gimbal, which adds auto tracking; maybe similar uses? https://www.theverge.com/news/614366/insta360-flow-2-pro-ai-... Sony may not really know to be fair!

On the very low end, I'd mention the very affordable single chip 8x8 pixel 4m depth vl53l5cx. Used by ETH Zurich on a swarm of very lightweight mapping drones! https://www.st.com/en/imaging-and-photonics-solutions/vl53l5... https://hackaday.com/2024/10/11/tiny-drones-do-distributed-m...

Re: Sony Unveils the Smallest and Lightest Lidar Depth Sensor

#13

Post by solardev »

moralestapia wrote: post #10
solardev wrote: post #9

Wait, haven't iPhones and iPads had lidars for several years now? Aren't they much smaller? https://www.ifixit.com/products/iphone-13-pro-lidar-sensor This Sony one looks huge in comparison. Am I missing some fundamental difference between them?

My guess would be that's not "true" LIDAR. It's probably something akin to the Kinect hardware; an infrared pattern is projected, then distance is inferred depending on how it gets distorted, while LIDAR sends photons and measures them back (technically the first does that as well but w/e).

I don't think Apple would outright mislabel it if it were some other kind of depth sensor. iPhones do also combine data from the visible light cameras to aid in depth mapping, but the lidar sensor is a separate emitter and receiver.

As far as I can tell, it's true lidar?

Technical analysis: https://4da.tech/?p=582

Being used for science: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-01763-9

Re: Sony Unveils the Smallest and Lightest Lidar Depth Sensor

#14

Post by solardev »

The title is misleading. There are smaller similar sensors. From the actual PR:

> Sony Electronics Announces the World's Smallest and Lightest[1]

> [1] As a 3D LiDAR with a measurement range of 10m or more under sunny outdoor conditions (excluding modules), according to Sony research, as of April 2025

So the smallest within those constraints, not overall. The iPhone ones are smaller. (And I think they also use Sony receivers?)

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/sony-electronics-an...

Re: Sony Unveils the Smallest and Lightest Lidar Depth Sensor

#15

Post by tecleandor »

thot_experiment wrote: post #2

A very meandering article, here's the info you want: ~30deg fov 24x24 resolution 940nm IR 50g, approx 3cm^3 max range in 15fps mode @ center of fov, 50% albedo outdoor 20m indoor 40m 30fps default mode (range expectations not stated for this mode) 5mm accuracy @ 10m (unclear in which mode) no word on price first party info: https://pro.sony/ue_US/products/lidar/as-dt1

The size confused me a lot. You have a typo there, It's ~27cm^3 (or ~3^3cm^3 if you want) and not 3cm^3.

I was thinking.. Now THAT'S small. :)

Re: Sony Unveils the Smallest and Lightest Lidar Depth Sensor

#16

Post by tecleandor »

Animats wrote: post #8

There are already LIDAR units for drones about that size.[1] About the same weight, better resolution, available now. There are smaller phone time of flight cameras, with better resolution. Really needs price info. There's good expensive stuff, and not very good cheap stuff, in this space. [1] https://www.digikey.com/en/product-highlight/l/lightware-lid...

There's a big difference on accuracy, though. The one you posted has 10cm of accuracy, and the one announced has 5mm.

Also 360 vs 30 degrees of fov.

I think it's for a completely different market (although I'm not sure which one...)

Re: Sony Unveils the Smallest and Lightest Lidar Depth Sensor

#17

Post by apercu »

Animats wrote: post #8

There are already LIDAR units for drones about that size.[1] About the same weight, better resolution, available now. There are smaller phone time of flight cameras, with better resolution. Really needs price info. There's good expensive stuff, and not very good cheap stuff, in this space. [1] https://www.digikey.com/en/product-highlight/l/lightware-lid...

That's the application I was thinking of - imagine being at a (small) archeological dig site and being able to fly a drone with lidar over your dig.

Re: Sony Unveils the Smallest and Lightest Lidar Depth Sensor

#18

Post by wan23 »

tecleandor wrote: post #15
thot_experiment wrote: post #2

A very meandering article, here's the info you want: ~30deg fov 24x24 resolution 940nm IR 50g, approx 3cm^3 max range in 15fps mode @ center of fov, 50% albedo outdoor 20m indoor 40m 30fps default mode (range expectations not stated for this mode) 5mm accuracy @ 10m (unclear in which mode) no word on price first party info: https://pro.sony/ue_US/products/lidar/as-dt1

The size confused me a lot. You have a typo there, It's ~27cm^3 (or ~3^3cm^3 if you want) and not 3cm^3. I was thinking.. Now THAT'S small. :)

29 by 29 by 31 millimeters from the article - that's about 3cm^3

Re: Sony Unveils the Smallest and Lightest Lidar Depth Sensor

#19

Post by thot_experiment »

wan23 wrote: post #18
tecleandor wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The size confused me a lot. You have a typo there, It's ~27cm^3 (or ~3^3cm^3 if you want) and not 3cm^3. I was thinking.. Now THAT'S small. :)

29 by 29 by 31 millimeters from the article - that's about 3cm^3

no he's right, it's a cube 3cm a side which is 27cc

Re: Sony Unveils the Smallest and Lightest Lidar Depth Sensor

#20

Post by moralestapia »

Animats wrote: post #11
moralestapia wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess would be that's not "true" LIDAR. It's probably something akin to the Kinect hardware; an infrared pattern is projected, then distance is inferred depending on how it gets distorted, while LIDAR sends photons and measures them back (technically the first does that as well but w/e).

There have been Kinect sensors with true time of flight. The first Kinect used triangulation, but Microsoft switched to time-of-flight for later models.[1] There are several ways to do this. At short ranges, they all work. Then it gets hard, because not much energy is coming back. [1] https://arxiv.org/abs/1505.05459

Nice, I didn't know that!
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