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In Two Moves, AlphaGo and Lee Sedol Redefined the Future (2016)

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Re: In Two Moves, AlphaGo and Lee Sedol Redefined the Future (2016)

#11

Post by IlikeKitties »

canistel wrote: post #4

Well, Bridge remains unconquered, although it is unclear whether it is because of disinterest or incapability. As I have highlighted before, the day a computer false-cards will be the day. (False-carding - playing a certain card with the primary intention of deceiving the opponents and forcing an error)

Does Bridge have card draw from a randomized deck? Because that's most likely the issue. I'm facing similar problems when trying to build something that plays Magic The Gathering like games reasonably competent. The combinatorics explosion and dealing with bluffing/hidden knowledge is really a tough nut to crack. My current guess is that you need something like monte carlo reinforcement learning to do it.

Forcing an Error is an especially hard case because in machine vs machine matches both sides would be aware that something could force an error and would therefore not fall for it.

Re: In Two Moves, AlphaGo and Lee Sedol Redefined the Future (2016)

#12

Post by Cthulhu_ »

gsf_emergency wrote: post #8
canistel wrote: post #4

Well, Bridge remains unconquered, although it is unclear whether it is because of disinterest or incapability. As I have highlighted before, the day a computer false-cards will be the day. (False-carding - playing a certain card with the primary intention of deceiving the opponents and forcing an error)

How about the slightly easier* Poker? OpenAI seem to be mildly interested https://xcancel.com/polynoamial?lang=en https://arxiv.org/abs/2301.09159 (To be fair, re (card) games: I'm also only interested in seeing Cyborg-on-Cyborg action. Lee vs a-G almost qualified :)

I need to ask, when playing against AI players in poker games, are they fair (= work on the same sets of cards, are not aware of your hand) or do they get to cheat?

(I played a MTG game years ago and it was not fair, the opponent's deck was not shuffled but they always had cards that provided a certain experience)

Re: In Two Moves, AlphaGo and Lee Sedol Redefined the Future (2016)

#13

Post by redbell »

I consider AlphaGo - The Movie [1] to be a timeless classic that will never feel outdated. In my opinion, it surpasses even Hollywood productions, despite being based on true events and filmed live with real people. I'm ranking it as #2, though, because I still believe Steve Jobs' 2007 iPhone presentation [2] is the greatest live tech event ever captured on film. Hearing the crowd screaming when seeing some tricks and techniques ( eg. slide to unlock, pinch to zoom and scrolling up) on how to use the phone does really triggers some haptic feedback in my heart because we are now so used to these tricks that were pure magic back then.

______________________________

1.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXuK6gekU1Y

2.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQKMoT-6XSg

Re: In Two Moves, AlphaGo and Lee Sedol Redefined the Future (2016)

#14

Post by evandijk70 »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #12
gsf_emergency wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about the slightly easier* Poker? OpenAI seem to be mildly interested https://xcancel.com/polynoamial?lang=en https://arxiv.org/abs/2301.09159 (To be fair, re (card) games: I'm also only interested in seeing Cyborg-on-Cyborg action. Lee vs a-G almost qualified :)

I need to ask, when playing against AI players in poker games, are they fair (= work on the same sets of cards, are not aware of your hand) or do they get to cheat? (I played a MTG game years ago and it was not fair, the opponent's deck was not shuffled but they always had cards that provided a certain experience)

They are indeed fair. The strongest poker bots are not AI in the way it is commonly defined. From my understanding they calculate the nash-equilibrium for a simplified game and extrapolate that to the full game.

Re: In Two Moves, AlphaGo and Lee Sedol Redefined the Future (2016)

#16

Post by Xcelerate »

There are a lot of parallels between rule-based games like Go and rule-based formal systems like ZFC. It’s interesting that the same techniques used for AlphaGo have not worked nearly as well for finding proofs of famous open problems that we suspect are both 1) decidable within ZFC and 2) have a “reasonable” minimal proof length.

What aspect of efficiently exploring the combinatorial explosion in possibilities of iterated rule-based systems is the human brain still currently doing much better than machines?

Re: In Two Moves, AlphaGo and Lee Sedol Redefined the Future (2016)

#18

Post by giraffe_lady »

russellbeattie wrote: post #6

Coincidentally, I just watched the hour long documentary that DeepMind made about the match [1]. It talks a lot about the two moves - though not really in detail. To a non-go player like myself, both moves 37 and 78 seemed completely arbitrary. I mean, much of the video talks about how it's impossible to calculate all the future moves like in chess, yet move 37 of a possible ~300 move game is called out as genius, an…

I don't know why you'd expect to be able to read the board as a non-player. If I watch a surgeon at work a lot of the individual motions are inscrutable to me. It's like looking at sheet music if you don't play an instrument. You just don't have the mental schema to see what is interesting about even the most interesting parts.

I was watching this game with my go club and we all instantly saw the significance of 37, it was audible in the room. 78 felt tangibly different, some of us immediately read it as a clear misplay, some were taking longer to come to any conclusion, just puzzled. Our most experienced player, at the time 5 dan, gasped when he got it. But it still took him time to even intuit what it was doing. Now that it is well understood, moves of that type are common even in intermediate level play. Changed the game forever.

Re: In Two Moves, AlphaGo and Lee Sedol Redefined the Future (2016)

#19

Post by tmtvl »

bondarchuk wrote: post #15

Would be nice if they could.. you know.. show the moves they're talking about.

The games can be viewed on gokifu: http://gokifu.com/player/Alphago>

They're ordered by date from newest to oldest, so it's the 3rd and 4th games v Lee Sedol from the top down.

Re: In Two Moves, AlphaGo and Lee Sedol Redefined the Future (2016)

#20

Post by nom »

redbell wrote: post #13

I consider AlphaGo - The Movie [1] to be a timeless classic that will never feel outdated. In my opinion, it surpasses even Hollywood productions, despite being based on true events and filmed live with real people. I'm ranking it as #2, though, because I still believe Steve Jobs' 2007 iPhone presentation [2] is the greatest live tech event ever captured on film. Hearing the crowd screaming when seeing some tricks an…

Agreed, I've watched the Alpha Go movie, I think, 3 times by now. It elicits strong emotions in me which I get very rarely from a movie or story.

I think it's due to the subject matter and people being very relatable to me. And it's real, filmed while it happened, instead of some madeup or retold story.

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