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What a refugee camp reveals about economics

economist.com

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Re: What a refugee camp reveals about economics

#11

Post by trollbridge »

jdietrich wrote: post #9
ggm wrote: post #3

Hard not to believe Malawi would have a bigger economic upside from liberalising working rights and providing a pathway to citizenship.

Malawi doesn't have a functioning economy. It has a nominal GDP per capita of $464. It is heavily indebted and reliant on international aid. 80% of the population rely on subsistence farming and 70% live on less than $1.90 per day. Giving those refugees citizenship just means more mouths to feed; if they remain as refugees, then they're the UN's problem.

I will add that they are also a quite self reliant people; many of them live in areas where the government doesn’t provide much services at all (other than an occasional shakedown for a bribe). They are very good farmers. Their main opinion as I heard it expressed on foreign affairs is that they’d just like to be left alone and deal with less corruption.

One of the most amazing things was craftsmen who machine parts out of ebony wood or other tropical hardwoods - and use these to keep engines running. (I remain perplexed how they handle high heat, temperature changes, etc., but it works). I have never met a people more able to keep an ancient motorbike running.

Not everything gets counted in GDP… I am not sure the country would be improved if it somehow got replaced with a lifestyle of living like Europeans or Americans.

Re: What a refugee camp reveals about economics

#12

Post by thimkerbell »

trollbridge wrote: post #11
jdietrich wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Malawi doesn't have a functioning economy. It has a nominal GDP per capita of $464. It is heavily indebted and reliant on international aid. 80% of the population rely on subsistence farming and 70% live on less than $1.90 per day. Giving those refugees citizenship just means more mouths to feed; if they remain as refugees, then they're the UN's problem.

I will add that they are also a quite self reliant people; many of them live in areas where the government doesn’t provide much services at all (other than an occasional shakedown for a bribe). They are very good farmers. Their main opinion as I heard it expressed on foreign affairs is that they’d just like to be left alone and deal with less corruption. One of the most amazing things was craftsmen who machine parts…

Where is the youtube channel for the "craftsmen who machine parts out of ebony wood or other tropical hardwoods - and use these to keep engines running"?

Re: What a refugee camp reveals about economics

#14

Post by MPSFounder »

trollbridge wrote: post #4
ggm wrote: post #3

Hard not to believe Malawi would have a bigger economic upside from liberalising working rights and providing a pathway to citizenship.

From my experience with people who’ve spent years over there, there isn’t much desire for refugees to stay and become citizens. They are perceived by the voting public as competing for jobs. Jobs are perceived as scarce. It is politically far more popular to run on a platform of getting rid of refugees and refugee camps. There is also a very widespread perception that refugee camps are about making money for corrupt…

Same story everywhere. Intel was founded by Andy Grove, a refugee. I recently saw a comment opposing refugees mention that refugees in the old days were Eastern Europeans, whereas nowadays it is people from backwards countries (whatever that means). Anti-refugee sentiment is often racism that just happens to be accepted. Sbux once offered 10,000 refugees jobs, and had to rescind them in favor of veterans because Americans were offended. My personal view is refugees are often the hardest working and most honest people, given they experienced extreme hardships (similar to how holocaust survivors went on to dominate business and finance in America). It is such a shame America turned its back on many (particularly from Syria and Ukraine in recent years, although many churches sponsored Ukrainian families because they are Christian. Funny enough, I believe 10% of Syria are Christians too, but suburban churches did not sponsor them, with a minister saying they do not blend in, whatever that means).

Re: What a refugee camp reveals about economics

#15

Post by shove »

gwern wrote: post #13

The WWII POW camp paper discussed is a lot more interesting and worth reading than this article winds up being: https://gwern.net/doc/economics/1945-radford.pdf

Author attempts to use this paper to dunk on Marx’ labor theory of value, but Marx discusses this extensively in Capital: price and value are often interchangeable, but not always.

Re: What a refugee camp reveals about economics

#16

Post by thatguy0900 »

thimkerbell wrote: post #12
trollbridge wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will add that they are also a quite self reliant people; many of them live in areas where the government doesn’t provide much services at all (other than an occasional shakedown for a bribe). They are very good farmers. Their main opinion as I heard it expressed on foreign affairs is that they’d just like to be left alone and deal with less corruption. One of the most amazing things was craftsmen who machine parts…

Where is the youtube channel for the "craftsmen who machine parts out of ebony wood or other tropical hardwoods - and use these to keep engines running"?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5oTByYWBqKs

Project farm actually has a few videos somewhat in this vein

Re: What a refugee camp reveals about economics

#18

Post by AStonesThrow »

jdietrich wrote: post #9
ggm wrote: post #3

Hard not to believe Malawi would have a bigger economic upside from liberalising working rights and providing a pathway to citizenship.

Malawi doesn't have a functioning economy. It has a nominal GDP per capita of $464. It is heavily indebted and reliant on international aid. 80% of the population rely on subsistence farming and 70% live on less than $1.90 per day. Giving those refugees citizenship just means more mouths to feed; if they remain as refugees, then they're the UN's problem.

My friend, since 1964 it would seem that the 80% farmers feeding their own families is an exceedingly attractive deal, and many Traditional Catholics would totally go for that lifestyle, provided that they can continue homeschooling...

Re: What a refugee camp reveals about economics

#19

Post by unmole »

trollbridge wrote: post #11
jdietrich wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Malawi doesn't have a functioning economy. It has a nominal GDP per capita of $464. It is heavily indebted and reliant on international aid. 80% of the population rely on subsistence farming and 70% live on less than $1.90 per day. Giving those refugees citizenship just means more mouths to feed; if they remain as refugees, then they're the UN's problem.

I will add that they are also a quite self reliant people; many of them live in areas where the government doesn’t provide much services at all (other than an occasional shakedown for a bribe). They are very good farmers. Their main opinion as I heard it expressed on foreign affairs is that they’d just like to be left alone and deal with less corruption. One of the most amazing things was craftsmen who machine parts…

> I am not sure the country would be improved if it somehow got replaced with a lifestyle of living like Europeans or Americans.

Yeah, it's quite debatable that indoor plumbing, safe water or reliable electricity are actually good. Sure, Malawi has ten times the infant mortality rate as the EU, but is that really such a bad thing?

Re: What a refugee camp reveals about economics

#20

Post by atoav »

shove wrote: post #15
gwern wrote: post #13

The WWII POW camp paper discussed is a lot more interesting and worth reading than this article winds up being: https://gwern.net/doc/economics/1945-radford.pdf

Author attempts to use this paper to dunk on Marx’ labor theory of value, but Marx discusses this extensively in Capital: price and value are often interchangeable, but not always.

Isn't the selling strategy of "you can get these 5 things who all have a fantasy price of 1000 each for 2500 as a bundle (value 5000!)" a similar detachment?
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