My take is that your age should not the biggest thing you should be worried about. If all you have are coding classes on your belt, and no actual projects in the wild (stuff you did outside of class, apps you built that are on the market, open source contributions) then that should be something you should aim to rectify.
Job market for a 30+ person learning to code?
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Re: Job market for a 30+ person learning to code?
#12It's not about age, it's about skill. It can be hard to find honestly skilled programmers, even with how many coders are out there. Know your tools (the whole ecosystem, including version control, testing, profiling, etc). Know your languages. Know how to estimate your work (which only really comes with experience, but you don't need to wait for a job to build that experience). Know how to communicate what you are doing and how you're doing it and how to convey that what is being asked cannot be done in the time allowed (by suggesting alternatives rather than flat-out 'can't be done').
Most coding jobs, especially for junior devs, are going to want code-samples - that's where you have a chance to shine. Contribute to an open-source project or create something you can share (even if it's a 'how to get started with X' kind of project, it lets you demonstrate your coding/documentation approach).
Re: Job market for a 30+ person learning to code?
#13If you can demonstrate you are productive and adequately grounded in general computer science, you should not have trouble getting contract assignments in a hot area like Android programming. You can use the contract assignments to build your resume. Or, if you have the means to write some apps for Android app stores that look good and get good reviews, you may be able to skip that step.
Re: Job market for a 30+ person learning to code?
#14Oh please don't refer to 37-39 as old! I'm not quite there myself, but I I'm not far. :) it is never too late to kick ass if you want to kick ass. Best of luck! Like others have said, go create your own opportunities.
If you get good, your skills will speak for themselves. And besides, discrimination based on age is illegal in many countries.
Re: Job market for a 30+ person learning to code?
#15Something to consider: a lot of the reason people discriminate against older programmers is because it's a signaling quality for other, harder-to-measure qualities that are really important for programmers. When someone sees a 37-year-old mediocre programmer who's been programming since he was 22 and spent 10 years at his last company, they think "Why haven't you advanced? Why are you still doing the same stuff you were doing 10 years ago? Are you lazy? Not passionate? Don't have the mental capacity or will to learn new things? Have you gained no new skills in the last 10 years?"
This logic doesn't apply to someone just starting out at age 37. Here there's a really easy explanation for why you're mediocre: you just started out. And I find myself viewing someone who, say, just got out of the military at 35 and is now trying to get a job as a programmer at 37 very differently than someone who has been writing CRUD-screen apps for 15 years.
I wonder if the reason why programming tends to be more ageist than many other professions is because learning new things is really a core part of the profession. An accountant can take their core skills and jump into any job, because the rules are basically the same everywhere. A Ruby-on-Rails dev can take their skills, but they will have to learn a good deal about the existing codebase to be productive regardless of whether it's using the same framework. So someone who shows they haven't learned anything new in 10 years is toxic in the software industry.
Re: Job market for a 30+ person learning to code?
#16tl;dr - Ship something, THEN look for a job.
In the real world, your age is a handicap, no matter what people say. Look for differentiators. A great one is the ability to point to something reasonably complicated that you built from scratch and shipped. Very few programmers can do that, and the ones that can are a class above in the eyes of many employers.
One thing you have going for you is actual life experience that a fresh college grad can't possibly have. I'd try to figure out a way to emphasize that in the interview process. Certainly it's a better strategy than trying to hide your age.
I earnestly recommend going WAY, WAY past whatever you're learning in class, and becoming a subject matter expert in whatever you like working on most. If it's Java, read the entire JVM spec, for instance. Many employers will test primarily for raw problem-solving ability and general CS knowledge in interviews, but I find that intimate, detailed knowledge of one or two areas can also be a powerful differentiator.
Of course, make sure you can actually code. The only way to do that is to code a lot. Remember it's possible to know a lot, and even be able to explain a lot of technological concepts, and still not be able to code worth a damn. Don't be that guy. If you ship something substantial, you're going to have no choice but to do a good deal of coding, and enough server admin / networking / etc work to get an idea of how everything fits together, and a taste of the sorts of compromises one makes in actually getting something out the door.
I suffer from a different, though similar, disadvantage in the interview process: being black (and dressing, acting, talking like it unabashedly). I've learned to live with reduced initial expectations over the course of my educational and professional career (not interested in a debate on this; I have dozens of unambiguous life experiences to confirm). The upside is that people are primed to be surprised by what you can do. Try to view that as an advantage.
Re: Job market for a 30+ person learning to code?
#17Build something small that you like and are proud of. Whenever we look to hire developers (especially Android devs) - those with a few apps in the store immediately get a pass on the first round of interviews and make it to the next level.
Honestly, building something tangible skips through a lot of the other pieces.
Re: Job market for a 30+ person learning to code?
#18This is an interesting question and one I've thought about a lot too. I'm 37 and an experienced developer/entrepreneur. I've been self-employed for 12+ years but if I ever had to "get a real job", it's something to think about. First off, remember that it's not legal for a US employer to ask your age. They can only ask if you're over 18. Of course, if you want to be sly about it, you'll need to craft your resume care…
Two other issues that seem to come up in the bay area are "culture fit" (which is sometimes a euphemism for "we want to have fun at work and it doesn't sound very fun to hang out with someone who is old") and "trajectory" (which is a euphemism for "if you were really an A player, you'd have a senior role by now; since you don't, there must be something wrong with you, even if we can't figure out precisely what it is in an interview.") That you've just started out should logically eliminate the second concern, but it doesn't really, since it's a stereotype and people are not rational about stereotypes.
It's probably best to avoid companies that think about hiring in the way that they'd think about selecting frat pledges, in favor of companies that think about hiring in terms of increasing their capacity to get work done. But if you really wanted to get a job at the former kind of company, my advice is (1) try to build a rapport with your interviewers somehow, so that they look up to you and think you're cool, rather than pity you for being old and wanting to be let into their treehouse, (2) contextualize yourself as having gotten really excited about programming all of a sudden, after a few decades of kicking ass in other fields, and then having made a lot of progress in programming very quickly. That's something that anyone can respect.
Re: Job market for a 30+ person learning to code?
#191. Learn to code (You're doing that now)
2. Write down ideas (10 a day) about businesses you can start with software (thank you James Altucher for that tip)
3. Once you have a solid idea (dont do your first one) start writing an MVP. Not sure what an MVP is? Listen to the Lean Startup book on Audible (or buy the real book if you like to read)
4. Build a MVP product and ship it. Get a couple customers.
5. Work hard.
6. Eventually get paid and not work for anyone, other than you and your customers.
You're 37 now, you definitely dont want to be in a cube farm with a bunch of other resentful folks who write code for a fortune 500 company. I'm sure you have some domain knowledge around something else. Perhaps you were a flooring installer prior to code. Maybe you were a plumber, who knows. Take that skill and think about what software could have helped you during those times. Look for competitors, evaluate the market and then once you find that idea in that proper niche market. Go for it.
Another book to listen to: Start Small, Stay Small
Good luck!
Re: Job market for a 30+ person learning to code?
#20well, if you would put a contact information in your https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=rburgosnavas HN profile (in the about field) i would contact you for a freelance project (if you do freelance).
i recommend to stop seeing age as an obstacle, see it as an asset - what did you work before? see your new programing experience in context of your previous work experience.
note: i'm 35, i love starting over