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Revenge of the Junior Developer

sourcegraph.com

11–20 of 94 posts

Re: Revenge of the Junior Developer

#11
Much of this post was spot on — but the blind spots are highly problematic.

In this agentic AI utopia of six months from now:

* Why would developers — especially junior developers — be assigned oversight of the AI clusters? This sounds more like an engineering management role that’s very hands on. This makes sense because the skill set required for the desired outcomes is no longer “how do I write code that makes these computers work correcty” and rather “what’s the best solution for our customers and/or business in this problem space.” Higher order thinking, expertise in the domain, and dare I say wisdom are more valuable than knowing the intricacies of React hooks.

* Economically speaking what are all these companies doing with all this code? Code is still a liability, not an asset. Mere humans writing code faster than they comprehend the problem space is already a problem and the brave new world described here makes this problem worse not better. In particular here, there’s no longer an economic “moat” to build a business off of if everything can be “solved” in a day with a swarm of AI agents.

* I wonder about the ongoing term scaling of these approaches. The trade off seems to be extremely fast productivity at the start which falls off a cliff as the product matures and grows. It’s like a building that can be constructed in a day up to a few floors but quickly hits an upper limit as your ability to build _on top of_ the foundational layer of poorly understood garbage.

* Heaven help the ops / infrastructure folks who have to run this garbage and deal with issues at scale.

Btw I don’t reject everything in this post — these tools are indeed powerful and compelling and the trendlines are undeniable.

Re: Revenge of the Junior Developer

#13

I’m usually one of the people complaining about hype cycles, and it’s usually been correct to be pessimistic about them. But in this particular case I have to think a lot of people just haven’t tried it in its best form. No, not a local model on your MacBook. No, not the web interface on the free plan. Go lay down $300 into API credits, spend a weekend (or maybe two) fully setting up aider, really give it a shot. It’…

$300? That much sounds like it would last a year. You don't need to spend anywhere near $300 just to try things out

We're using Cline, and it's very easy to blow through $20-40 if you get going. The value proposition is absolutely there so we eat the cost, but OP is correct in that agentic coding eats tokens like there's no tomorrow.

Re: Revenge of the Junior Developer

#14

> I have bad news: Code completions were very popular a year ago, a time that now feels like a distant prequel. But they are now the AI equivalent of “dead man walking.” I disagree. I view this as a "machine guns versus heat sinking missiles from the 70s" dichotomy. Sure, using missiles is faster. However, sometimes you're too close for missiles. Also, machine gun rounds are way cheaper than missiles. However, when t…

> Clunky, crude, but can get massive amounts done quickly, if that's what's needed.

You know what's quicker in your analogy? A spell. Or in the coding world. Template, snippets, code generators, framework, and metaprogramming. Where you abstract all the boilerplate behind a few commands. You already know the blast radius of your brute modification tools, so you no longer have to micromanage them. And it's reliable

Re: Revenge of the Junior Developer

#15
post #7
post #2

the only good part was the joke about "vibecoding" ( shudder what a stupid term) being like a fart and attracting flies... ok investors still, this "ai code tools will deprecate real programming" bullshit will one day be laughed at just like how most of us laugh at shitcoin maniacs it just takes a lot of people way too long to learn

Maybe there's a different universe out there, where the code you write is not expected to work, so you can poke the LLM for a whole day to see if it barfs something out. I spend much of the day reading and thinking and only a small portion actually writing code, because when I'm typing, I usually have a hypothetical solution that is 99% correct and I'm just bringing it to life. Or I'm refactoring. You can interrupt m…

I agree with the spirit of the argument, but I don’t think you’re taking into account the scale of “typing” we’re talking about now.

For example, yesterday I needed a parser for a mini-language. I wrote a grammar — actually not even the formal grammar, just some examples — and what I wanted the AST to look like. I said “write the tokenizer”, and it did. I told it to tweak a few things and write tests. It did. I told it to “write a recursive descent parser”, and it did. Add tests and do some tweaks, done.

The whole thing works and it took less than an hour.

So yeah, I had to know I needed a parser, but at that point I could pretty much hand off the details. (Which I still checked over, so I’m not even in full vibe mode, guess.)

Re: Revenge of the Junior Developer

#16

I’m usually one of the people complaining about hype cycles, and it’s usually been correct to be pessimistic about them. But in this particular case I have to think a lot of people just haven’t tried it in its best form. No, not a local model on your MacBook. No, not the web interface on the free plan. Go lay down $300 into API credits, spend a weekend (or maybe two) fully setting up aider, really give it a shot. It’…

> It’s ultimately a pretty small amount of money when it comes to figuring out whether the people who are telling you there’s an existential risk to your livelihood on the horizon are onto something, don’t you think?

Nope. I'd rather buy some books or a Jetbrains subscription.

Re: Revenge of the Junior Developer

#17

I think a lot of people are going to be surprised at how fast "vibe coding" with agents replaces a lot of traditional software engineering. Especially for non-critical software, but eventually where safety matters too since AI can generate tons of test cases.

There is so much hype around agents but I am still thoroughly unimpressed.

They’re fine at basic tasks, but nothing more.

Re: Revenge of the Junior Developer

#18
post #2

the only good part was the joke about "vibecoding" ( shudder what a stupid term) being like a fart and attracting flies... ok investors still, this "ai code tools will deprecate real programming" bullshit will one day be laughed at just like how most of us laugh at shitcoin maniacs it just takes a lot of people way too long to learn

Yeah, call me a cynic or conservative or whatever - I'll believe it when I see it. I give very little weight to predictions about the future from AI shills, especially when they include some variant of "we're 90% there already" or "an exponential shift is imminent, if things keep improving at this rate, which they Will." Opinion discarded, create your thing and come back if/when it works.

Everything is shifting so fast right now that it hardly matters anyways. Whatever I spend time learning will be outdated in a few years (when things are predicted to get good). It does matter if you're trying to sell AI products, though. Then you gotta convince people they're missing out, their livelihood is at stake if they don't use your new thing now now now.

Re: Revenge of the Junior Developer

#19
post #5

I love how new technology becomes like religion. It develops both cult followers and critics. In that lens think the AI cult is more right than the Crypto cult. At least I can use it to do something tangible right now while crypto is still pretty useless after many years. In some sense I think these technologies need the cults and the critics though. It’s good to have people push new things forwards even if everyone…

Cryptocurrency allows people who are otherwise limited by draconian payment platform limitations, puritanical moralists who own credit card companies and such to buy and sell things online without being stopped. It's obviously not a good system but it provides a high effort release valve, a fallback mechanism that hopefully will undermine some of these draconian measures. Lots of people have been helped by the existence of cryptocurrency because of this, especially since lately a lot of bad actors control payment platforms and often just shut down businesses on whims.

Whether more have been helped or hurt is debatable but it certainly has a tangible, if niche, use case with real value. It certainly has no value as a store of value, though.

Re: Revenge of the Junior Developer

#20
post #7
post #2

the only good part was the joke about "vibecoding" ( shudder what a stupid term) being like a fart and attracting flies... ok investors still, this "ai code tools will deprecate real programming" bullshit will one day be laughed at just like how most of us laugh at shitcoin maniacs it just takes a lot of people way too long to learn

Maybe there's a different universe out there, where the code you write is not expected to work, so you can poke the LLM for a whole day to see if it barfs something out. I spend much of the day reading and thinking and only a small portion actually writing code, because when I'm typing, I usually have a hypothetical solution that is 99% correct and I'm just bringing it to life. Or I'm refactoring. You can interrupt m…

I disagree, agentic coding is amazing for prototyping. It removes a ton of friction and inertia and allows me to try a bunch of ideas to see what works (from a delivery and/or UX perspective). Of course, you should have the systems thinking and experience in place to know what it is you're doing with it at any given point , but for demos and prototypes it has been an absolute boon.

Generally, you wouldn't type out the spec either, either you provide an existing spec to the model (in form of white board notes, meeting notes, etc.) or you iterate conversationally until you arrive at an initial implementation plan.

It's a different way of working for sure, and it has distinct draw backs and requires different mental modes depending if you're doing green field, demo/prototype, existing large app feature development etc. but it's been a massive productivity enhancement, especially when tackling multiple projects in quick succession.

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