We Should Own the Economy • Hacker News Board

Re: We Should Own the Economy

#11

Post by panic » Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 6:45 PM UTC

mouse_ wrote: post #3

Capital (as in "money", not the means of production) is, boiled down, a means of social compulsion. I can compel a person to make me a sandwich with $10, and should they refuse very many times, they will be put into a position of jeopardy, with less access to food, shelter, medical services, hygiene, etc. In our culture, capital is like a whip to a horse and buggy. Putting more capital into more people's pockets is l…

Can civilization work without social compulsion? I think our fear that it can’t, or our belief that the only way to compel people is the threat of punishment, is what keeps these dynamics alive.

Re: We Should Own the Economy

#12

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 6:50 PM UTC

Muromec wrote: post #6

helicalmix wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is not intuitive to me. In your description, it feels like capital more closely resembles carrots then whips? also, the person's only source of wages isn't going to be specifically making sandwiches for just you, no?

Whip is a means of signaling and carrot has utility of it's own. That's an important distinction.

[deleted]

Re: We Should Own the Economy

#13

Post by scarface_74 » Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 6:51 PM UTC

Just for reference, if you include home equity, to be in the top 10%, you have to have wealth of $2.25 million.

Without home equity it’s about 1.5 million.

Source: https://dqydj.com/net-worth-percentile-calculator/

Re: We Should Own the Economy

#14

Post by datadrivenangel » Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 6:51 PM UTC

panic wrote: post #11

mouse_ wrote: post #3

Capital (as in "money", not the means of production) is, boiled down, a means of social compulsion. I can compel a person to make me a sandwich with $10, and should they refuse very many times, they will be put into a position of jeopardy, with less access to food, shelter, medical services, hygiene, etc. In our culture, capital is like a whip to a horse and buggy. Putting more capital into more people's pockets is l…

Can civilization work without social compulsion? I think our fear that it can’t, or our belief that the only way to compel people is the threat of punishment, is what keeps these dynamics alive.

Compulsion is mandatory, but it can be majority structured as positive suasion and emphasizing the benefits of collaboration.

Re: We Should Own the Economy

#15

Post by bryceneal » Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 6:53 PM UTC

Muromec wrote: post #8

Oh, the actual communism is cool again? What is happening in US, for real?

This doesn't sound like communism to me. Rather it sounds like an attempt to proselytize capitalism. The stated purpose of the book is to "to create an elevated vision for capitalism in which everyone gets richer from capital". The author goes on to state that they are researching things like equity incentive structures and profit sharing models.

Capitalism is all about aligning incentives. Those of us who have experienced startups know just how important it is to have your employees aligned with the interests of the company in the form of equity grants. I've always personally wondered why this isn't more common outside of Silicon Valley. I respect the goal of researching these topics more deeply.

Re: We Should Own the Economy

#16

Post by pyrale » Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 6:53 PM UTC

Muromec wrote: post #8

Oh, the actual communism is cool again? What is happening in US, for real?

It's not someone asking for communism, just for the return of a more healthy capitalism where everyone has a chance to invest, as opposed to some sort of feudalism where private ownership of strategic companies becomes more common, monopoly is the goal of every owner, and competition is seen as a harmful.

This capitalism of yesterday was also a key part of protecting us from people being enrolled in totalitarian world views: people used to say "when trade doesn't cross borders, armies will". Now, with that monopoly/concentrated economy mindset, the thinking in the US has shifted to "we must cross borders to secure our interests".

Calling it communism is the kind of fucked up newspeak supporting less capitalism rather than more.

Re: We Should Own the Economy

#17

Post by readthenotes1 » Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 6:54 PM UTC

datadrivenangel wrote: post #14

panic wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can civilization work without social compulsion? I think our fear that it can’t, or our belief that the only way to compel people is the threat of punishment, is what keeps these dynamics alive.

Compulsion is mandatory, but it can be majority structured as positive suasion and emphasizing the benefits of collaboration.

Plus "If we don’t do something about it we could lose democracy. We already are. "

I assume she is referring to the attempts to remove Donald Trump from various State ballots in 2024, making it harder for people who would have wanted to vote for him to do so. Not quite as far as happened in Romania of course.

There are very few MAGA communists, if any.

Re: We Should Own the Economy

#18

Post by mouse_ » Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 6:56 PM UTC

helicalmix wrote: post #4

mouse_ wrote: post #3

Capital (as in "money", not the means of production) is, boiled down, a means of social compulsion. I can compel a person to make me a sandwich with $10, and should they refuse very many times, they will be put into a position of jeopardy, with less access to food, shelter, medical services, hygiene, etc. In our culture, capital is like a whip to a horse and buggy. Putting more capital into more people's pockets is l…

this is not intuitive to me. In your description, it feels like capital more closely resembles carrots then whips? also, the person's only source of wages isn't going to be specifically making sandwiches for just you, no?

I should hope the average Joe is not viewed as a work mule to be compelled to action with whips and carrots.

Re: We Should Own the Economy

#19

Post by lo_zamoyski » Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 6:58 PM UTC

Muromec wrote: post #8

Oh, the actual communism is cool again? What is happening in US, for real?

Incidentally, you might find Sheen's "Communism and the Conscience of the West"[0] eye opening.

Wojtyła had similar things to say, which surprises people, because during the Cold War, he was seen as staunchly anti-communist - which he was - and the triumphant general responsible for toppling it, but his critiques and warnings concerning liberalism/capitalism were conveniently ignored or overlooked.

[0] https://clunymedia.com/products/communism-and-the-conscience...

Re: We Should Own the Economy

#20

Post by slibhb » Thu, Mar 20, 2025, 6:59 PM UTC

The chunk of the economy you own should be proportionate to the amount you contributed to growing the economy. In modern, functioning economies, this is more or less the case.

The idea that inequality will lead to lopsided political power hasn't yet been proven. If the 100 richest Americans decided who was president, it would be someone like Bill Gates or Michael Bloomberg -- not Donald Trump.

People who focus so much on inequality should rethink their priorities. Actually, living in a highly unequal economy is fine as long as:

1. Wealth is highly correlated to productivity

2. The poor have access to the necessities