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Layoffs Don't Work

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Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#11

Post by HappyJoy »

dustingetz wrote: post #8
DebtDeflation wrote: post #5

They used to be a once a decade "save the company during a recession" move. Now they seem to be a quarterly "manage earnings per share" move.

software development costs are out of control the whole industry is one big grift, there’s no accountability anywhere, 20% of the devs are doing 80% of the work, the business would instantly terminate the 80% for cause if they could only discern the difference, but they can’t, because the business side is also a big grift with the exact same problem all the way up to the founders recursively

And, of course, you can site a reference for those statistics. That aside, I don't agree with your overall sentiment.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#12

Post by michaelt »

RicoElectrico wrote: post #4

The other question is why C-suite does even need to tell the respective division management to lay off employees if the actual goal is cost reduction. Shouldn't they impose a budget reduction target instead and trust them to allocate the savings between capex, opex and salary budget according to specific situation at hand?

The C suite wants to take the blame, so the people you deal with face to face can honestly say the decision was taken out of their hands.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#14

Post by VWWHFSfQ »

dustingetz wrote: post #8
DebtDeflation wrote: post #5

They used to be a once a decade "save the company during a recession" move. Now they seem to be a quarterly "manage earnings per share" move.

software development costs are out of control the whole industry is one big grift, there’s no accountability anywhere, 20% of the devs are doing 80% of the work, the business would instantly terminate the 80% for cause if they could only discern the difference, but they can’t, because the business side is also a big grift with the exact same problem all the way up to the founders recursively

So much of the software industry is just an outrageous combination of inexperience and "YOLO". Every problem can be solved by just giving AWS another $100,000 this month because we don't have time (and don't know how) to make even basically optimized software. So just burn the gas and electricity and give more money to the YAML merchants at Amazon.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#15

Post by thrance »

dustingetz wrote: post #8
DebtDeflation wrote: post #5

They used to be a once a decade "save the company during a recession" move. Now they seem to be a quarterly "manage earnings per share" move.

software development costs are out of control the whole industry is one big grift, there’s no accountability anywhere, 20% of the devs are doing 80% of the work, the business would instantly terminate the 80% for cause if they could only discern the difference, but they can’t, because the business side is also a big grift with the exact same problem all the way up to the founders recursively

I'll start to call this mindset the "DOGE mind-virus": "80% of workers are doing absolutely nothing and can be cut with no repercussions whatsoever". Sure buddy.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#16

Post by dartos »

dustingetz wrote: post #8
DebtDeflation wrote: post #5

They used to be a once a decade "save the company during a recession" move. Now they seem to be a quarterly "manage earnings per share" move.

software development costs are out of control the whole industry is one big grift, there’s no accountability anywhere, 20% of the devs are doing 80% of the work, the business would instantly terminate the 80% for cause if they could only discern the difference, but they can’t, because the business side is also a big grift with the exact same problem all the way up to the founders recursively

Got news for you.

It’s not the devs who are bloating development costs. It’s the layers of management making hour long meetings to discuss button placement.

It’s the hours of retros, design meetings, and skip-levels designed to remove any personal investment or sense of ownership from everything.

Since so few individuals are trusted with real decision making power, you need a lot more people to achieve some kind of consensus/buy-in so that you can ship anything.

The devs are at the extreme bottom of this totem poll.

It’s like blaming construction workers for houses being expensive.

And, ofc, that goes without mentioning the multimillion yearly bonuses for C-suite, but we can just forget about that and blame the lowest ranking corporate employees (devs)

Source: I worked at a large tech firm for many years and saw this over and over again.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#17

Post by roenxi »

> Research has consistently shown he was right about layoffs: They’re damaging to companies...

The research is probably misleading. The damage was done to companies when the over-hired people who couldn't add enough value to justify keeping them employed. The layoffs are just when the damage is recognised.

It is like borrowing a huge amount of money, using 90% of it it to buy prawns and leaving them out to rot for a few days. The damage is now done, the borrowed money is lost. It won't be recognised for a while though. There is even enough left over to pay an interest payment or two to string everything along. But the damage is done.

A lot of people treat economics as though damage didn't happen unless someone acknowledges it. That isn't how it works. Not acknowledging that something is value-destructive just means more value is destroyed by the time people are forced by market forces to confront the truth.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#18

Post by fzeroracer »

DebtDeflation wrote: post #5

They used to be a once a decade "save the company during a recession" move. Now they seem to be a quarterly "manage earnings per share" move.

Running a business is less and less about actual business outcomes and more about juicing stock. And the stock market itself is divorced from reality as companies whose output has gone down over time sees higher valuations because the owner has cult appeal. So everything gets worse and more expensive year over year while feckless suits get sloshed over company dinners.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#19

Post by dartos »

wffurr wrote: post #7
RicoElectrico wrote: post #4

The other question is why C-suite does even need to tell the respective division management to lay off employees if the actual goal is cost reduction. Shouldn't they impose a budget reduction target instead and trust them to allocate the savings between capex, opex and salary budget according to specific situation at hand?

>> why C-suite does even need to tell the respective division management to lay off employees if the actual goal is cost reduction You answered your own question. For a lot of layoffs, cost reduction isn't the goal; it's disciplining the workforce who were increasingly assertive at work about direction and conditions.

It’s honestly probably not that evil.(generally. There are definitely evil orgs out there)

It’s just the easiest way to make the stock price go up.

Layoffs caused twitter to bump in price. Same with Microsoft when they laid off all those game devs.

C-suite don’t care about profit or losses in tech, just the stock price.

In the 2010s, hiring devs increased stock prices. In the 2020s mass firings do.

It’s just money. Simple as.

Re: Layoffs Don't Work

#20

Post by fzeroracer »

roenxi wrote: post #17

> Research has consistently shown he was right about layoffs: They’re damaging to companies... The research is probably misleading. The damage was done to companies when the over-hired people who couldn't add enough value to justify keeping them employed. The layoffs are just when the damage is recognised. It is like borrowing a huge amount of money, using 90% of it it to buy prawns and leaving them out to rot for a…

'The research is wrong because I said so' isn't exactly a compelling argument, and certainly not a strong enough one when you've been in the modern workforce long enough to recognize how badly layoffs are conducted at just about every company. I've seen enough 10x engineers get laid off to know that the idea that companies have any idea as to who is actually productive or not is just false.
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