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Rediscovering Quaternions

jasonfantl.com

11–20 of 72 posts

Re: Rediscovering Quaternions

#11

Not detracting from this post, but has anyone else noticed there's a front page post about Quaternions or Kalman filters on about a monthly cadence? Wonder why that is?

At least this is a topic that the average HN reader is likely to be able to understand and which is closely related to software. Several years ago there was a period where there were periodic posts about things like homotopy type theory and research-level algebraic geometry which inevitably spark only inane misunderstandings and uninformed speculation in the comments. I can only attribute it to some kind of fetish for the frontiers of pure math.

Re: Rediscovering Quaternions

#12
> These discontinuities are not just an artifact of poor implementation; it can be proven that any representation of 3D rotations using only three values must contain discontinuities.

This is a bit pedantic - and the blog post actually does clarify this - but the problem isn't that a 3D representation of representations has "discontinuities" as such, it's that it's not orientable in Euclidean 3D space. It is similar to the Klein bottle - the mathematical description is continuous, but any Klein bottle made of real-world glass has to intersect itself. Or likewise that a Mobius strip can be demonstrated in 3D but can't be built in Flatland without a 3D entity doing the copy-pasting. Reality just has the wrong topology to represent the full group of rotations. Hence the discussion about projective space later in the blog post.

So adding a fourth gimbal is really tantamount to a correctly-oriented embedding of 3D rotations onto a 4-torus (that is, [0,2pi]^4).

Gimbal lock also relates to another issue of continuity, related to the "plate dance."[1] Rotations themselves have a sense of continuity (infinitesimal differences in either the angle or axis of rotation, aka they are Lie groups), but Euler angles fail to respect the equivalent fundamental theorem of calculus: adding a bunch of infinitesimal changes might say you are at the identity rotation according to Euler angles, but in reality you have flipped the meaning of the right-hand rule and the overall state of the system is not at the identity. In a robotics context, the robot's hand might have done a complete rotation, but its arm is twisted without the robot "knowing." I believe robotic arms used to have a serious problem with this, either overrotating and breaking the arm, or swinging dangerously fast in the opposite direction. Using quaternions / a fourth gimbal / etc. there would be a measurable phase or pole indicating the true state of the system, and letting the robot know how to rotate its arm without malfunctioning. So, like the Apollo mission, the need for a fourth dimension to keep track of that stuff - and even the quaternion multiplication structure - comes about pretty naturally without ever thinking about abstract math.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_trick

Re: Rediscovering Quaternions

#15

Not detracting from this post, but has anyone else noticed there's a front page post about Quaternions or Kalman filters on about a monthly cadence? Wonder why that is?

Quaternions and spherical trigonometry - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42880242 - Jan 2025 (48 comments)

Visualizing quaternions (2018) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38043644 - Oct 2023 (42 comments)

Visualizing quaternions: an explorable video series (2018) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31083042 - April 2022 (15 comments)

Visualizing quaternions: An explorable video series - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18310788 - Oct 2018 (32 comments)

Re: Rediscovering Quaternions

#16

Not detracting from this post, but has anyone else noticed there's a front page post about Quaternions or Kalman filters on about a monthly cadence? Wonder why that is?

I never noticed it until I read Pynchon's Against the Day, I assume I just ignored quaternion posts before then. Great book, enjoyed the way he used quaternions and vectors towards literary ends.

Edit: just noticed we also have a thread on bifurcation, another big topic in Against the Day.

Re: Rediscovering Quaternions

#17

Not detracting from this post, but has anyone else noticed there's a front page post about Quaternions or Kalman filters on about a monthly cadence? Wonder why that is?

They're both simple to motivate and complicated enough to have an allure.

Re: Rediscovering Quaternions

#18

If I had to describe Quaternions to someone I would first try to explain a Plane (Ax + By + Cz + D = 0) to them. ABC being a (normal) direction that the Plane is pointed towards and D being the distance from the origin. A Quaternion from what I believe is just the same but instead of distance it just encodes the rotation around that direction as a fixed axis. (Instead the angle stored is half etc). Feel free to corre…

If you a explaining this to the average American, you are going to have to start a bit further back than a "Plane".

In the beginning... there was nothing...

Re: Rediscovering Quaternions

#19

Not detracting from this post, but has anyone else noticed there's a front page post about Quaternions or Kalman filters on about a monthly cadence? Wonder why that is?

They’re both quite basic building blocks in state estimation and as SV’s focus shifts from web apps to drone warfare it will only increase in frequency.

Re: Rediscovering Quaternions

#20

Not detracting from this post, but has anyone else noticed there's a front page post about Quaternions or Kalman filters on about a monthly cadence? Wonder why that is?

It's because the quaternion is part of the state of the Kalman filter.

Not in any intrinsic way, it’s just a mildly better way of representing attitude if your state vector includes attitude.
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