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A new proposal for how mind emerges from matter

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Re: A new proposal for how mind emerges from matter

#11

Post by BriggyDwiggs42 »

mirekrusin wrote: post #9
sctb wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My general understanding is that "mind" is an objective concept; people have minds that cognize and think and learn and so on. Some minds are apparently more capable of those things than others. When speaking about intelligence, it makes sense to associate that with the mind. Consciousness, on the other hand, is (even) less well-defined and is usually considered to be subjective. Being subjective, it tends to resist…

I don't understand why people have problem with simply stating that it is emergent phenomenon and that's it. Similarly to how computer is computer and half sized computer is half of its bigger friend – you can keep halving it until there is no "computer" left in it. Or pencil – you have pencil that you call pencil; what about pencil half size of it? and so on until you hit single atom. You had pencil, now you don't,…

Pencil is just an idea, minds objectively have qualia (measured internally).

Edit: you can’t measure “pencilness,” but you can’t help but know whether or not you’re in pain.

Re: A new proposal for how mind emerges from matter

#12

Post by heyjamesknight »

mirekrusin wrote: post #9
sctb wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My general understanding is that "mind" is an objective concept; people have minds that cognize and think and learn and so on. Some minds are apparently more capable of those things than others. When speaking about intelligence, it makes sense to associate that with the mind. Consciousness, on the other hand, is (even) less well-defined and is usually considered to be subjective. Being subjective, it tends to resist…

I don't understand why people have problem with simply stating that it is emergent phenomenon and that's it. Similarly to how computer is computer and half sized computer is half of its bigger friend – you can keep halving it until there is no "computer" left in it. Or pencil – you have pencil that you call pencil; what about pencil half size of it? and so on until you hit single atom. You had pencil, now you don't,…

Because that's the same as giving up and saying "we don't understand."

What is mind emerging into? When a video game experience emerges from the combination of processing, display, sound, and controller input, it emerges into a level of organization that a mind can participate in. It emerges into a system of organization emanating downward from the mind experiencing it. It can't just "emerge" into existence on its own. If a game falls in the woods, its not a game.

If you call the mind an emergent phenomenon but can't describe the context into which it emerges, you've added nothing to our understanding.

Re: A new proposal for how mind emerges from matter

#13

Post by mandmandam »

ripped_britches wrote: post #8

Can we retitle this as there is nothing new here besides long musings

There is, if you read it.

> Which brings us to the most striking idea — that some types of electrical oscillations could mediate an experience of self.

> In 2021, Hanson found that similar electrical activity — spontaneous low-frequency oscillations — is evident across many different organisms, from E. coli to humans. She concluded that across a diverse range of creatures, the oscillations may have a shared function: constructing a single organismal whole from many parts.

That's fascinating stuff which deserves the title (and the long context). 2021 is pretty damn new as far as theories of mind go.

Re: A new proposal for how mind emerges from matter

#14

Post by unsupp0rted »

mandmandam wrote: post #13
ripped_britches wrote: post #8

Can we retitle this as there is nothing new here besides long musings

There is, if you read it. > Which brings us to the most striking idea — that some types of electrical oscillations could mediate an experience of self. > In 2021, Hanson found that similar electrical activity — spontaneous low-frequency oscillations — is evident across many different organisms, from E. coli to humans. She concluded that across a diverse range of creatures, the oscillations may have a shared function:…

This would be a mechanism for how in sci fi they scan a nebula and say "signs of intelligence" or something like that. "Our scanners have picked up the telltale oscillations".

Re: A new proposal for how mind emerges from matter

#15

Post by mandmandam »

unsupp0rted wrote: post #14
mandmandam wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is, if you read it. > Which brings us to the most striking idea — that some types of electrical oscillations could mediate an experience of self. > In 2021, Hanson found that similar electrical activity — spontaneous low-frequency oscillations — is evident across many different organisms, from E. coli to humans. She concluded that across a diverse range of creatures, the oscillations may have a shared function:…

This would be a mechanism for how in sci fi they scan a nebula and say "signs of intelligence" or something like that. "Our scanners have picked up the telltale oscillations".

Exactly! And even a possible mechanism for the Universal Translator (as long as you don't Darmok your Tanagras too hard).

Re: A new proposal for how mind emerges from matter

#16

Post by layer8 »

heyjamesknight wrote: post #12
mirekrusin wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why people have problem with simply stating that it is emergent phenomenon and that's it. Similarly to how computer is computer and half sized computer is half of its bigger friend – you can keep halving it until there is no "computer" left in it. Or pencil – you have pencil that you call pencil; what about pencil half size of it? and so on until you hit single atom. You had pencil, now you don't,…

Because that's the same as giving up and saying "we don't understand." What is mind emerging into ? When a video game experience emerges from the combination of processing, display, sound, and controller input, it emerges into a level of organization that a mind can participate in. It emerges into a system of organization emanating downward from the mind experiencing it. It can't just "emerge" into existence on its o…

Emergence has no “into”, IMO: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

Re: A new proposal for how mind emerges from matter

#17

Post by hikarudo »

card_zero wrote: post #3

I read it all, for a certain value of "read". It's very long, and heavy on examples and fascinating facts, but skimps on getting to the point. I enjoyed the line about plant biologists suffering from brain envy. The article gets better from about halfway through as skeptical views begin to be introduced, but eventually it lets go of that and turns back into lot of hand-wavy awe about mycorrhizal networks, and I misse…

> we've had that idea since at least Hofstadter and his sentient ant nests.

A similar idea is present in Herbert Simon's 'The sciences of the artificial', where he describes a sentient city.

Re: A new proposal for how mind emerges from matter

#18

Post by card_zero »

mandmandam wrote: post #13
ripped_britches wrote: post #8

Can we retitle this as there is nothing new here besides long musings

There is, if you read it. > Which brings us to the most striking idea — that some types of electrical oscillations could mediate an experience of self. > In 2021, Hanson found that similar electrical activity — spontaneous low-frequency oscillations — is evident across many different organisms, from E. coli to humans. She concluded that across a diverse range of creatures, the oscillations may have a shared function:…

Oh that's the key point. I barely noticed it. OK, well, this is very literally about the first steps in how brains evolved. It's akin to theories of abiogenesis like the one involving clay crystals "reproducing". But it's steep to say this is about minds, which only works if we accept the various parts of the article that urge us to stop being so egotistical and anthropocentric as to expect that a mind should be capable of doing something clever.

Re: A new proposal for how mind emerges from matter

#19

Post by heyjamesknight »

layer8 wrote: post #16
heyjamesknight wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that's the same as giving up and saying "we don't understand." What is mind emerging into ? When a video game experience emerges from the combination of processing, display, sound, and controller input, it emerges into a level of organization that a mind can participate in. It emerges into a system of organization emanating downward from the mind experiencing it. It can't just "emerge" into existence on its o…

Emergence has no “into”, IMO: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

All of those examples are emergence "into". The snowflake emerges into the mathematical patterns emanating downward. The termite cathedral emerges into the architectural context of the observer. Without emanating structure, there is no "emergence"—just a proliferation of chaos and error.

Re: A new proposal for how mind emerges from matter

#20

Post by rzz3 »

mandmandam wrote: post #13
ripped_britches wrote: post #8

Can we retitle this as there is nothing new here besides long musings

There is, if you read it. > Which brings us to the most striking idea — that some types of electrical oscillations could mediate an experience of self. > In 2021, Hanson found that similar electrical activity — spontaneous low-frequency oscillations — is evident across many different organisms, from E. coli to humans. She concluded that across a diverse range of creatures, the oscillations may have a shared function:…

The right way to include all of this context would be to start with the lead and then back it up with the context. I can’t read stuff written like this.
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