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US friendship is in freefall – shredding bonds and cutting lives short

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Re: US friendship is in freefall – shredding bonds and cutting lives short

#11
post #3

--I cut a misinterpretation here.-- > We’ve long pondered why the marriage rate, and the corresponding birth rate, has plummeted in America. Answers often focus on financial stressors: Young Americans can’t afford a home like their parents could at their age, some speculate; others blame limited parental leave or poor day-care options. > Perhaps — but the corresponding slump in close friendships doesn’t add up. Peopl…

Agreed. Friendship kinda costs money. I had a friend loose a job like a year ago. I used to see them every other week but it became like twice a year while they were broke.

Friendship can also be an economic net positive, it mostly depends on how you’re interacting. Watching each other's kids at home creates extra free time. Having an extra hand and different set of tools when working on home projects is a net gain which means you can be better off while helping each other etc.

However, so much of how people spend their free is consumptive that hanging out has become increasingly expensive.

Re: US friendship is in freefall – shredding bonds and cutting lives short

#12
I'm really fortunate to be in a very outdoors and offline community that values our personal ties above most things. We spend a lot time playing music around campfires, backpacking in the mountains, and cooking up good food together. We spend the hard times together too. Sometimes you drop everything to go winch a buddy's truck out of the mud, help someone move, or take five hours of your day to go on a hike long enough to really talk about what a breakup means.

I'm back in a city for a bit, hanging out with a more mainstream crowd, and the difference has been jarring. Dinner means an hour or two in a busy restaurant. Playing music is a planned event with low priority amongst busy schedules. Nobody helps eachother move, there's an app for that.

I'm shocked to see how quickly those norms have changed how I interact with people! I'm ashamed that I drove past a guy who clearly needed a hand changing his tire when I had my impact in my truck earlier. I don't know who I would call in this group for more than an hour over a beer to talk through heavy stuff without feeling I was imposing. I'm spending time with far more people, and on paper I'm doing so many things, but we're all a lot lonelier in this crowded place than my group and I were out in the woods.

Luckily it's a simple fix. I'll get back to focusing on my people soon, and will give them the effort and time that keeps us all thriving amidst the social wasteland. I don't necessarily need to leave the city to do that, but it's a lot easier to see what's important out past the pavement.

Re: US friendship is in freefall – shredding bonds and cutting lives short

#13

--I cut a misinterpretation here.-- > We’ve long pondered why the marriage rate, and the corresponding birth rate, has plummeted in America. Answers often focus on financial stressors: Young Americans can’t afford a home like their parents could at their age, some speculate; others blame limited parental leave or poor day-care options. > Perhaps — but the corresponding slump in close friendships doesn’t add up. Peopl…

The article may be a bunch of slop but there is something deeply cultural in the US that is contributing to this. Not being able to afford things or social media or pretty much anything that gets the blame for the “loneliness pandemic” isn’t unique to the US. My personal experience has been that the same individualistic culture that allows people to do whatever they want and become whoever they want, that yields grea…

People gotta touch grass. I want to say it's cars too: it's easy to be on your phone and hard to meet up with friends.

Re: US friendship is in freefall – shredding bonds and cutting lives short

#14
I think the extreme political hardlining makes this happen too.

I've never been to the US but this extreme-right stuff has made its way to Holland too. They already gained 30% of votes in the last election. Meaning I had to drop a lot of friends. Once they start screaming about "woke" or bitching about trans people they are forever out of my life.

At first I used to try to reason with them. I thought sure, it's just a misunderstanding. I'll just explain it and give some official links and we can move past this. I explained countless times that no, kids aren't given gender surgery. No there's no deep state trying to make people gay (as if you even could!). No, nobody would ever go through a whole transition just so they can perv in the women's bathroom. The very idea is just insane if you know what it entails.

But there was no point. These guys just want to be so angry they're foaming at the mouth. They actually enjoy their hate, there's no way they let something as trivial as facts get in the way. They wave official statistics and reports away as 'deep state propaganda' or 'the woke agenda'. It doesn't matter that what they're angry about isn't true and makes no sense. They just want to be angry and 'stick it to the man'.

One of my ex-'friends' even asked me seriously if I had plans to transition. I said no, why would you even think that? I'm very happy with my gender and identity and always have been. Well, he said, several of your friends are trans and they spread it around. I quizzed him on it thinking he was just trolling but no, he really believes this. Heard it in some podcast. Just... WTF. This is exactly why we need education on these subjects in schools.

But anyway, so I have no time anymore for that kind of negativity in my life and I'm sick of arguing about this. And listening to all this hate. So I'm done. Note that I'm not disrespecting them or calling them names. I'm not even angry at them, if anything I'm just sad. But I just don't want to interact with them anymore.

The good thing though is that I did get closer to my progressive and LGBT friends. We never talk about this because we all hate negativity, we just roll our eyes at the news. But we realize we need to stick together to defend ourselves when the time comes.

As far as the cause I'm basically blaming social media for it. They strive for engagement to maximise their eyeball time and hate is a very powerful driver of engagement. It might not even have been a conscious choice by these companies. But I am getting very worried now where this is heading.

Re: US friendship is in freefall – shredding bonds and cutting lives short

#15

--I cut a misinterpretation here.-- > We’ve long pondered why the marriage rate, and the corresponding birth rate, has plummeted in America. Answers often focus on financial stressors: Young Americans can’t afford a home like their parents could at their age, some speculate; others blame limited parental leave or poor day-care options. > Perhaps — but the corresponding slump in close friendships doesn’t add up. Peopl…

It's bad writing. But in between your first two quotes, you clipped out a paragraph that ends with this: > Americans with college degrees experienced a similar but less steep drop. They are saying the same thing as you on that point.

Point taken, thanks for pointing that out.

Re: US friendship is in freefall – shredding bonds and cutting lives short

#16

Not surprised. Every relationship in America is transactional. Work is cut throat especially at stacked ranking companies. This country is basically a social Darwinian hellhole. Friendships here seem try and extract the most value from others. I have an incredibly close circle of friends thankfully.

You're surprised at everyone but yourself?

Re: US friendship is in freefall – shredding bonds and cutting lives short

#17
The article in the New York Post, appears to be referencing this article by Daniel Cox of the "Survey Center on American Life". [1] The article itself on americansurveycenter website is far more extensive with a much larger discussion.

[1] https://www.americansurveycenter.org/research/disconnected-p...

Much of the article that is the source is actually devoted to the discussion about working class vs educated divides and lack of access to communal public places then resulting in diminished possibilities for socializing and friendship. Quite a bit actually focuses mostly on public parks, libraries, public gardens, restaurants, bars, libraries, and community centers.

Parks and libraries have some of the most significant shift as far as the educational divide. Half with 4 years visit, while only a quarter without.

Restaurants being the most popular among the "third places" (not public parks or libraries)

  "Americans report that people in their community can gather in restaurants or diners (46 percent), coffee shops or cafés (41 percent), gyms or fitness centers (37 percent), and local markets or corner stores (35 percent). Relatively few Americans report they can spend time with their neighbors in bookstores or other retail spaces (20 percent) and barbershops or hair salons (22 percent)."
Across the board, 4 year degree respondents also respond more positively towards almost every single public social location as an area where they go to meet and socialize with others. High School or less appear simply appear to have less "access" to these locations. And thereby less friendships that develop.

Restaurants, grocers/markets, and barbershops appear to be the most egalitarian, parks and gyms appear to be the furthest separated based on educational divides.

Even "no access" to "minimal access" has a fairly significant shift in friendship numbers reported. 32% "no access -> no friends", vs 17% "minimal access -> no friends" The "3-5 friends" category also jumps from 23% to 36%, and the "10 or more" jumps from 6% to 13%.

Educated people also tend to walk their neighborhood a larger amount, thereby resulting in greater amount of "chance encounters" or "friendly chats", and thereby more friendships.

The best opportunities that the "high school or less" members seem to feel they often have is religious society membership and communities.

There's also some discussion on divides on hobbies and freetime with education, and that part was actually kind of saddening from a certain perspective, as the numbers really look like "high school or less" feel little ability to engage with hobby, activity, community, workout, or sports related groups in their communities. Rather stark divide. 5-10% vs 15-20% in almost every category. Slight variation with ethnicity (African Americans seem more comfortable with community groups) yet lack of college education really seems to impose a harsh sensation of isolation in America.

Notably though, the project does appear to mostly be a one person show doing their own surveys, and writing every article (this survey notes Sam Pressler as supporting).

The article's appear to be well written, and methodology appears to be sufficiently explained. Appear to be notes, sources, and citations on supporting material (some self referential to their own articles). However, simply, a note that it also appears to be a one person website doing their own independent surveying, publishing, and research.

  Methodology: "AEI’s Survey Center on American Life designed and conducted the survey. Interviews were conducted among a random sample of 6,597 adults (age 18 and up). All interviews were conducted among participants in the Ipsos KnowledgePanel, a probability-based panel designed to be representative of the US general population, not just the online population. Interviews were conducted in Spanish and English between March 29 and April 15, 2024."

Re: US friendship is in freefall – shredding bonds and cutting lives short

#18
post #11
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Friendship kinda costs money. I had a friend loose a job like a year ago. I used to see them every other week but it became like twice a year while they were broke.

Friendship can also be an economic net positive, it mostly depends on how you’re interacting. Watching each other's kids at home creates extra free time. Having an extra hand and different set of tools when working on home projects is a net gain which means you can be better off while helping each other etc. However, so much of how people spend their free is consumptive that hanging out has become increasingly expens…

> Watching each other's kids at home creates extra free time.

Not a thing if no one has free time because everyone has to work.

> Having an extra hand and different set of tools when working on home projects is a net gain which means you can be better off while helping each other etc.

Again, who has the money to have tools? Who has the money to work on home projects? Have you seen the cost of construction materials lately?

Re: US friendship is in freefall – shredding bonds and cutting lives short

#19

--I cut a misinterpretation here.-- > We’ve long pondered why the marriage rate, and the corresponding birth rate, has plummeted in America. Answers often focus on financial stressors: Young Americans can’t afford a home like their parents could at their age, some speculate; others blame limited parental leave or poor day-care options. > Perhaps — but the corresponding slump in close friendships doesn’t add up. Peopl…

"if you can't afford to leave your kids (with daycare or a carer) "

- some lawnmower parents won't even their kids with close relatives

- many apparently bought into the "nuclear family" (parent[s] + kids) and not the extended family. About the extended family, or the replacement by a close neighborhood group, parents are on their own - - and that's a recipe for disaster.

Re: US friendship is in freefall – shredding bonds and cutting lives short

#20
post #3

--I cut a misinterpretation here.-- > We’ve long pondered why the marriage rate, and the corresponding birth rate, has plummeted in America. Answers often focus on financial stressors: Young Americans can’t afford a home like their parents could at their age, some speculate; others blame limited parental leave or poor day-care options. > Perhaps — but the corresponding slump in close friendships doesn’t add up. Peopl…

Agreed. Friendship kinda costs money. I had a friend loose a job like a year ago. I used to see them every other week but it became like twice a year while they were broke.

Is that because y'all couldn't think of ways to spend time with one another that didn't cost money? Seems like a fairly tenuous friendship...
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