New junior developers can’t code • Hacker News Board

Re: New junior developers can’t code

#11

Post by yellow_lead » Mon, Feb 17, 2025, 5:03 AM UTC

Todays junior dev that is copying AI code without understanding it, is the same as the junior dev several years ago who did the same with stack overflow code.

This is a mindset, and I don't think AI code is changing the number of people with this mindset. What it may be doing though, is letting them get away with it for longer.

Re: New junior developers can’t code

#12

Post by gjsman-1000 » Mon, Feb 17, 2025, 5:05 AM UTC

malfist wrote: post #2

This article is just the latest in the long history of lamenting the laziness of the youth

While a trope, it is also statistically proven that the youth of this generation are doing worse, by almost every metric, than prior generations; including but not limited to achieving adult milestones years later than normal, record high percentages of medication distribution, and (for what it’s worth) a historically low percentage of young people that could even enter the military if they wanted to, at just 1 in 7.

Re: New junior developers can’t code

#13

Post by mk_chan » Mon, Feb 17, 2025, 5:05 AM UTC

There’s no real connection to junior developers in this article. It’s a piece about how the author feels people are using AI and how the author feels people should use AI. The quick fix vs deep understanding positions are mired by many factors; two of the big ones being time and how much one cares none of which are actually discussed.

Re: New junior developers can’t code

#14

Post by billforsternz » Mon, Feb 17, 2025, 5:05 AM UTC

The implication that Stack Overflow was somehow the only way you'd ever find a solution to a gnarly problem (back in the day) seems weird to me. I mean before that (even during that) there was the alternative problem solving technique of, well, rolling up your sleeves getting stuck in and figuring out the problem yourself without asking anybody. By doing some reading. Or by reading source code. Or disassembling code when there was no source code. Or by using a debugger. Or a logic analyser. Or by doing experiments. Or some combination of some or all of these and other things that didn't involve being spoon fed.

Re: New junior developers can’t code

#15

Post by ok_dad » Mon, Feb 17, 2025, 5:05 AM UTC

malfist wrote: post #2

This article is just the latest in the long history of lamenting the laziness of the youth

I love how ten years ago it was folks complaining about juniors using Google to code, this articles first suggestion was juniors need to Google more. Twenty years ago it was that Python was not as good as learning C or something. Thirty, it was probably folks lamenting juniors can’t code x86 asm.

Re: New junior developers can’t code

#16

Post by chias » Mon, Feb 17, 2025, 5:05 AM UTC

When I was younger people derided us new junior developers who relied on compiling and running their code to see what it would do, instead of thinking deeply about it. Using a REPL is a sure sign of a weak mind.

I feel like every 15 years or so you can just find-and-replace the name of the tech we decide is only for Not Real Programmers.

Re: New junior developers can’t code

#17

Post by computerthings » Mon, Feb 17, 2025, 5:06 AM UTC

malfist wrote: post #2

This article is just the latest in the long history of lamenting the laziness of the youth

Please don't forget to tell us about them in great detail, Socrates and all that. After all that supposed counter-argument to anything and everything only gets brought up every single time when anyone suggests something got worse.

Re: New junior developers can’t code

#18

Post by gjsman-1000 » Mon, Feb 17, 2025, 5:06 AM UTC

ok_dad wrote: post #15

malfist wrote: post #2

This article is just the latest in the long history of lamenting the laziness of the youth

I love how ten years ago it was folks complaining about juniors using Google to code, this articles first suggestion was juniors need to Google more. Twenty years ago it was that Python was not as good as learning C or something. Thirty, it was probably folks lamenting juniors can’t code x86 asm.

Nah, they are still whining here, on Hacker News, about how a 91 KB webpage is too large to be considered disciplined. (Literally saw that comment earlier today.)

Re: New junior developers can’t code

#19

Post by tombert » Mon, Feb 17, 2025, 5:07 AM UTC

dartos wrote: post #6

malfist wrote: post #2

This article is just the latest in the long history of lamenting the laziness of the youth

I don’t think so. Being lazy and never developing foundational knowledge is different. New devs are expected to have experience using AI coding tools. If they’re expected to have that, why wouldn’t they trust it? If you trust a code generator, why dig deeper?

People said similar things when C compilers became decent.

Turns out that we still have people who know how to write good code, even good assembly code.

Re: New junior developers can’t code

#20

Post by dartos » Mon, Feb 17, 2025, 5:07 AM UTC

simonw wrote: post #7

begueradj wrote: post #4

It's like relying on a GPS to go everywhere you need. You will quickly find out you don't know to go anywhere by yourself.

... and maybe that's OK? I've been reliant on GPS on my phone for probably over a decade now. I'm probably lost without it. But... I explore way more of the world now! I'll quite happily bounce around to random parts of a city that's completely foreign to me, safe in the knowledge that I'll always be able to find my way back again. (I don't know if this analogy will hold up for AI-assisted programming - I still think…

I don’t think it’s a great analogy, and here’s why:

When trying to get from point A to point B, there is a clear, well defined goal.

Streets (paths) are also clear and well defined (within reason on most popular GPS direction software).

An expert in city streets may get you there a little faster, but the end result of both GPS directions and city street experts is the same; getting you to B. What’s more, once you’re at B, the route you took probably no longer matters.

The only side effect of taking different routes is the time involved.

Coding is different. There’s a combinatorial explosion of different paths to get to any step of any problem. Each path has consequences which can be very difficult to understand at the time. (for example, the classic of-by-one error always causes some strange behavior)

Also, the code is an artifact that would need to be understood, built upon, and changed in the future.

It’s just a different beast than getting directions.