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Life is more than an engineering problem

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Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#11

Post by baruchel »

Squarex wrote: post #6
vrnvu wrote: post #4

Highly recommend "Stories of Your Life and Others". I describe Ted Chiang as a very human sci-fi author, where humanity comes before technology in his stories. His work is incredibly versatile, and while I expected sci-fi, I'd actually place him closer to fantasy. Perfect for anyone who enjoys short stories with a scientific, social, or philosophical twist. Another anthology I'd recommend with fresh ideas is Axiomati…

Ted Chiang and Greg Egan are my absolutely favourite authors. Do you know about other similar writers?

Some stories by Ted Chiang share similarities with those of Borges.

Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#12

Post by vrnvu »

baruchel wrote: post #11
Squarex wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ted Chiang and Greg Egan are my absolutely favourite authors. Do you know about other similar writers?

Some stories by Ted Chiang share similarities with those of Borges.

Love Borges.

In the sci-fi space I'd argue that Ursula K. Le Guin is another must read. She was heavily influenced by taoism (and eastern philosophy). When you approach her work with that in mind, it adds a whole new layer of depth to everything.

Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#13

Post by teleforce »

> And even though I know a perfect language is impossible

It's already existed for a very long time and it's called Arabic language. It's the extreme opposite of English where English is a hodgepodge of a languages mixtures where about 1/3 is French language, about one third is old English and about 1/3 of other world's languages including Arabic.

Comparing the best of English literatures for example Shakespeare's books and the best of Arabic literature for example Quran, there's no contest. That's why translating Quran with English does not doing it justice and only scratches the surfaces of its intended meaning. You can find this exact disclaimers in most of the Quran translations but not in Shakespeare's books translation.

Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#14

Post by ChrisKnott »

> "It’s like imagining that a printer could actually feel pain because it can print bumper stickers with the words ‘Baby don’t hurt me’ on them. It doesn’t matter if the next version of the printer can print out those stickers faster, or if it can format the text in bold red capital letters instead of small black ones. Those are indicators that you have a more capable printer but not indicators that it is any closer to actually feeling anything"

Love TC but I don't think this argument holds water. You need to really get into the weeds of what "actually feeling" means.

To use a TC-style example... suppose it's a major political issue in the future about AI-rights and whether AIs "really" think and "really" feel the things they claim. Eventually we invent an fMRI machine and model of the brain that can conclusively explain the difference between what "really" feeling is, and only pretending. We actually know exactly which gene sequence is responsible for real intelligence. Here's the twist... it turns out 20% of humans don't have it. The fake intelligences have lived among us for millennia...!

Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#15

Post by encomiast »

teleforce wrote: post #13

> And even though I know a perfect language is impossible It's already existed for a very long time and it's called Arabic language. It's the extreme opposite of English where English is a hodgepodge of a languages mixtures where about 1/3 is French language, about one third is old English and about 1/3 of other world's languages including Arabic. Comparing the best of English literatures for example Shakespeare's bo…

This argument seems to presuppose that a language is more perfect if it has fewer influences and contributions from other languages. But you didn’t actually state that assumption, and certainly didn’t support it. Maybe the most perfect language is a perfect amalgamation of all languages. That’s at least as plausible to me.

Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#16

Post by ycombinete »

Squarex wrote: post #6
vrnvu wrote: post #4

Highly recommend "Stories of Your Life and Others". I describe Ted Chiang as a very human sci-fi author, where humanity comes before technology in his stories. His work is incredibly versatile, and while I expected sci-fi, I'd actually place him closer to fantasy. Perfect for anyone who enjoys short stories with a scientific, social, or philosophical twist. Another anthology I'd recommend with fresh ideas is Axiomati…

Ted Chiang and Greg Egan are my absolutely favourite authors. Do you know about other similar writers?

I’ve never encountered anything like Egan before. I’ve heard Stanislaw Lem mentioned in conversations about him though. But I can’t vouch for the comparison myself as I’ve never read Lem.

Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#17

Post by thwackamole »

ChrisKnott wrote: post #14

> "It’s like imagining that a printer could actually feel pain because it can print bumper stickers with the words ‘Baby don’t hurt me’ on them. It doesn’t matter if the next version of the printer can print out those stickers faster, or if it can format the text in bold red capital letters instead of small black ones. Those are indicators that you have a more capable printer but not indicators that it is any closer…

You appear to be conflating 'feeling' and 'intelligence', which is not what TC is doing.

He is also not wrong about whether current AIs experience feelings. I suggest you learn more about the neuroscience of feelings.

Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#18

Post by epr »

ChrisKnott wrote: post #14

> "It’s like imagining that a printer could actually feel pain because it can print bumper stickers with the words ‘Baby don’t hurt me’ on them. It doesn’t matter if the next version of the printer can print out those stickers faster, or if it can format the text in bold red capital letters instead of small black ones. Those are indicators that you have a more capable printer but not indicators that it is any closer…

I disagree. The reason humans anthropomorphize "AI" is because we apply our own meta-models of intelligence to llms, etc., where they simply don't apply. The model can spit out something that seems extremely intelligent and well thought out that would truly be shocking if a monkey said it for example due to our meta-model of intelligence, and that may be valid in that case if we determined it wasn't simply memorized. His argument can certainly be more fleshed out, but the point he's making is correct, which is that we can't treat the output of a machine designed to replicate human input as though it contains the requisite intelligence/"feeling"/etc to produce that output on it's own.

Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#19

Post by almusdives »

ChrisKnott wrote: post #14

> "It’s like imagining that a printer could actually feel pain because it can print bumper stickers with the words ‘Baby don’t hurt me’ on them. It doesn’t matter if the next version of the printer can print out those stickers faster, or if it can format the text in bold red capital letters instead of small black ones. Those are indicators that you have a more capable printer but not indicators that it is any closer…

> We actually know exactly which gene sequence is responsible for real intelligence.

We don't at all know this.

Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#20

Post by teleforce »

encomiast wrote: post #15
teleforce wrote: post #13

> And even though I know a perfect language is impossible It's already existed for a very long time and it's called Arabic language. It's the extreme opposite of English where English is a hodgepodge of a languages mixtures where about 1/3 is French language, about one third is old English and about 1/3 of other world's languages including Arabic. Comparing the best of English literatures for example Shakespeare's bo…

This argument seems to presuppose that a language is more perfect if it has fewer influences and contributions from other languages. But you didn’t actually state that assumption, and certainly didn’t support it. Maybe the most perfect language is a perfect amalgamation of all languages. That’s at least as plausible to me.

According to Islamic tradition it's the language of the heavens. The bottom line is that the best and/or perfect language there is, should be able to create the best and/or perfect literature either in the form of book/oration/etc. Mind you Quran is not originally in the form of book it's actually oral tradition and Muhammad is a well known illiterate person. In fact (I'm not making this up) currently there are many thousands (perhaps ten or hundred of thousands, who knows) of so called Hafiz who already memorizing the entire Quran. God forbid, if all the physical and digital Quran is being burned or deleted the entire Quran can be recreated rather easily. The same cannot be said about any other books including the Bible. Quran is believed to be sent as a revealed knowledge and wisdom as other books given to other prophets before Muhammad that started with Adam. Except that the other holy books are not guaranteed to be intact over time and have certain shelf life unlike the Quran [1].

But regardless, if you don't believe in prophethoods, you should view its supremacy from the point of Quran supreme literacy values alone (forget about the laws, the wisdom and the guidances). In actual facts there are several open challenges from Quran itself for those who doubted to create something of similar quality or values even in one short chapter or even smaller pieces of sentences. If you cannot and most probably never will even with the help of AI/LLMs/etc, you have to accept that Arabic is the perfect language in creating the original masterpiece.

[1] Magnificence of the Qur'an - by Mahmood bin Ahmad (2006):

https://www.amazon.com/Magnificence-of-the-Quran/dp/99609801...

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