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World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

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Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#11

Post by thereisnospork »

ok_dad wrote: post #10
thereisnospork wrote: post #5

BANANAs in action, can't even build a green energy facility in the literal middle of nowhere without complaints.

It’s an industrial plant with an attached power plant, it’s not like families will be using this power.

How is it you think families get power, goods, and services?

Ammonia makes fertilizer - this plant will help feed millions, dropping food costs. Even if the power this plant is generating won't go directly to families, it will be going into the things they eat and the things they buy in place of power they can use directly.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#12

Post by [deleted] »

ok_dad wrote: post #9
WorkerBee28474 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not going to build a port "just 5 to 11 kilometers from telescopes" (from TFA) when the telescopes are 15km from the ocean. A chemical plant wouldn't be inland either because it will want access to the port.

You think a port and industrial plant that requires 3/4 of a gigawatt of electricity will be built within a limit of less than 4000m from the ocean port? Every port I’ve seen took at least a few kilometers of inland space. I also don’t think a few kilometers makes much of a difference to the light reduction, basically any light at all will harm the telescope. I am surprised at the “meh” response from the commenters h…

[deleted]

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#13

Post by ggm »

WorkerBee28474 wrote: post #8
darthoctopus wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why is this downvoted? the specific cities (notably in Arizona) that have taken deliberate action on this are exceptions proving the general rule that light pollution is demonstrably less of a policy concern even compared to the notorious American disdain for walkable infrastructure.

The telescopes are 8,000 miles south of America. Why does American policy matter?

Because the goods made will be sold to American consumers directly and indirectly and are priced to reflect all kinds of costs including EPA compliance in domestic markets.

European markets also demand European norms to labour and health and environment are met, even if tokenistically. To some it is a form of protectionism.

It's also the "why can't we make it here" reasoning. If you tried to make it in the US it would be white anted out by lawfare. That's what happened to BHP when they proposed metals and minerals processing plants on the Californian coast.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#14

Post by fnordpiglet »

thereisnospork wrote: post #5

BANANAs in action, can't even build a green energy facility in the literal middle of nowhere without complaints.

It’s nothing to do with the merits of the project itself but that it would destroy a singular planetary resource.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#15

Post by ungreased0675 »

Would it be unthinkable to just NOT have bright lights pointed at the sky all night? Could they still do this project with severe restrictions on light emissions? If there’s some reason it absolutely must include hundreds of outdoor sodium vapor lights then build it somewhere else.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#16

Post by [deleted] »

ungreased0675 wrote: post #15

Would it be unthinkable to just NOT have bright lights pointed at the sky all night? Could they still do this project with severe restrictions on light emissions? If there’s some reason it absolutely must include hundreds of outdoor sodium vapor lights then build it somewhere else.

[deleted]

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#17

Post by culi »

thereisnospork wrote: post #5

BANANAs in action, can't even build a green energy facility in the literal middle of nowhere without complaints.

This isn't just about getting rid of the last place on earth you can sometimes get a truly dark sky. This is about progress itself

> Since its inauguration in 1999, Paranal Observatory, built and operated by the European Southern Observatory (ESO), has led to significant astronomy breakthroughs, such as the first image of an exoplanet and confirming the accelerated expansion of the Universe. The Nobel Prize in Physics in 2020 was awarded for research on the supermassive black hole at the centre of the Milky Way, in which Paranal telescopes were instrumental. The observatory is a key asset for astronomers worldwide, including those in Chile, which has seen its astronomical community grow substantially in the last decades. Additionally, the nearby Cerro Armazones hosts the construction of ESO’s Extremely Large Telescope (ELT), the world’s biggest telescope of its kind — a revolutionary facility that will dramatically change what we know about our Universe.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#18

Post by returningfory2 »

ok_dad wrote: post #9
WorkerBee28474 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not going to build a port "just 5 to 11 kilometers from telescopes" (from TFA) when the telescopes are 15km from the ocean. A chemical plant wouldn't be inland either because it will want access to the port.

You think a port and industrial plant that requires 3/4 of a gigawatt of electricity will be built within a limit of less than 4000m from the ocean port? Every port I’ve seen took at least a few kilometers of inland space. I also don’t think a few kilometers makes much of a difference to the light reduction, basically any light at all will harm the telescope. I am surprised at the “meh” response from the commenters h…

The problem is that, remarkably, there’s always a reason not to build. A different site in Chile will probably have some obscure species of beetle, or rocks that someone has interpreted as an Indigenous site, or some minor highway that can’t handle the traffic, etc etc etc, so that we can’t build there either.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#19

Post by fastball »

fnordpiglet wrote: post #14
thereisnospork wrote: post #5

BANANAs in action, can't even build a green energy facility in the literal middle of nowhere without complaints.

It’s nothing to do with the merits of the project itself but that it would destroy a singular planetary resource.

It's not "destroyed". If a dire need for dark skies arises, you can always... turn the lights off.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#20

Post by bryanlarsen »

ggm wrote: post #13
WorkerBee28474 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The telescopes are 8,000 miles south of America. Why does American policy matter?

Because the goods made will be sold to American consumers directly and indirectly and are priced to reflect all kinds of costs including EPA compliance in domestic markets. European markets also demand European norms to labour and health and environment are met, even if tokenistically. To some it is a form of protectionism. It's also the "why can't we make it here" reasoning. If you tried to make it in the US it woul…

Ammonia and hydrogen are essentially energy export mechanisms. They'll be exported to energy poor places, aka Asia, not America. they can and are made in America without fanfare. You wouldn't have states fighting to exlude green hydrogen or ammonia plants, you'd have states competing on how many subsidies they could give them.
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