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Extracting AI models from mobile apps

altayakkus.substack.com

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Re: Extracting AI models from mobile apps

#11

Post by SunlitCat »

JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B wrote: post #3

> Keep in mind that AI models [...] are considered intellectual property Is it ironic or missing a /s? I can't really tell here.

To be honest, that was my first thought on reading that headline as well. Given that especially those large companies (but who knows how smaller ones got their training data) got a huge amount of backlash for their unprecedented collection of data all over the web and not just there but everywhere else, it's kinda ironic to talk about intellectual property.

If you use one of those AI model as a basis for your AI model the real danger could be that the owners of the originating data are going after you at some point as well.

Re: Extracting AI models from mobile apps

#12

Post by rpdillon »

jdietrich wrote: post #8
wat10000 wrote: post #4

“ Keep in mind that AI models, like most things, are considered intellectual property. Before using or modifying any extracted models, you need the explicit permission of their owner.” That’s not true, is it? It would be a copyright violation to distribute an extracted model, but you can do what you want with it yourself.

Circumventing a copy-prevention system without a valid exemption is a crime, even if you don't make unlawful copies. Copyright covers the right to make copies, not the right to distribute; "doing what you want with it yourself" may or may not be covered by fair use. Whether or not model weights are copyrightable remains an open question. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201

Your comment confused me, but I'm very interested in what you're getting at.

> Circumventing a copy-prevention system without a valid exemption is a crime, even if you don't make unlawful copies.

Yep, this is the DMCA section 1201. Late '90s law in the US.

> Copyright covers the right to make copies, not the right to distribute

This is where I got confused. Copyright covers four rights: copying, distribution, creation of derivative works, and public performance. So I'm not sure what you were getting at with the copy/distribute dichotomy.

But here's a question I'm curious about: Can DMCA apply to a copy-protection mechanism that's being applied to non-copyrightable work? Based on my reading of https://www.copyright.gov/dmca/:

> First, it prohibits circumventing technological protection measures (or TPMs) used by copyright owners to control access to their works.

That's not the letter of the law, but an overview, but it does seem to suggest you can't bring a DMCA 1201 claim against someone circumventing copy-protection for uncopyrightable works.

> Whether or not model weights are copyrightable remains an open question.

And this is where the interaction with the wording of 1201 gets interesting, in my (non-professional) opinion!

Re: Extracting AI models from mobile apps

#15

Post by rileymat2 »

wat10000 wrote: post #4

“ Keep in mind that AI models, like most things, are considered intellectual property. Before using or modifying any extracted models, you need the explicit permission of their owner.” That’s not true, is it? It would be a copyright violation to distribute an extracted model, but you can do what you want with it yourself.

I doubt the models are copyrighted, arn’t works created by machine not eligible? Or you get into cases autogenerating and claiming ownership of all possible musical note combinations.

Re: Extracting AI models from mobile apps

#16

Post by jonpo »

Well done you seem to have liberated an open model trained on open data for blind and visually impaired people.

Paper: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2204.03738

Code: https://github.com/microsoft/banknote-net Training data: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/microsoft/banknote-net/ref...

model: https://github.com/microsoft/banknote-net/blob/main/models/b...

Kinda easier to download it straight from github.

Its licenced under MIT and CDLA-Permissive-2.0 licenses.

But lets not let that get in the way of hating on AI shall we?

Re: Extracting AI models from mobile apps

#17

Post by hnlmorg »

wat10000 wrote: post #4

“ Keep in mind that AI models, like most things, are considered intellectual property. Before using or modifying any extracted models, you need the explicit permission of their owner.” That’s not true, is it? It would be a copyright violation to distribute an extracted model, but you can do what you want with it yourself.

It’s hard to say because as far as I know this stuff hasn’t been definitively tested on any courts that I know of. Europe not America.

AI models are generally regarded as a company’s asset (like a customer database would also be), and rightly so given the cost required to generate one. But that’s a different matter entirely to copyright.

Re: Extracting AI models from mobile apps

#18

Post by echelon »

Lerc wrote: post #10
wat10000 wrote: post #4

“ Keep in mind that AI models, like most things, are considered intellectual property. Before using or modifying any extracted models, you need the explicit permission of their owner.” That’s not true, is it? It would be a copyright violation to distribute an extracted model, but you can do what you want with it yourself.

I'm not even sure if event the first part is true. Has it been determined if AI models are intellectual property? Machine generated content may not be copyrightable. It isn't just the output of generative AI that falls under this, the models themselves are. Can you copyright a set of coefficients for a formula? In the sense of a JPEG it would be considered that the image being reproduced is the thing that has the cop…

> AI models are intellectual property

If companies train on data they don't own and expect to own their model weights, that's hypocritical.

Model weights shouldn't be copyrightable if the training data was pilfered.

But this hasn't been tested because models are locked away in data centers as trade secrets. There's no opportunity to observe or copy them outside of using their outputs as synthetic data.

On that subject, training on model outputs should be fair use, and an area we should use legislation to defend access to (similar to web scraping provisions).

Re: Extracting AI models from mobile apps

#19

Post by dialup_sounds »

mcny wrote: post #9
jdietrich wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Circumventing a copy-prevention system without a valid exemption is a crime, even if you don't make unlawful copies. Copyright covers the right to make copies, not the right to distribute; "doing what you want with it yourself" may or may not be covered by fair use. Whether or not model weights are copyrightable remains an open question. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201

>Circumventing a copy-prevention system without a valid exemption is a crime, even if you don't make unlawful copies. Copyright covers the right to make copies, not the right to distribute; "doing what you want with it yourself" may or may not be covered by fair use. Whether or not model weights are copyrightable remains an open question. If that is the law, it is a defect that we need to fix. Laws do not come down f…

Time shifting is protected by 40 years of judicial precedent establishing it as fair use.

Re: Extracting AI models from mobile apps

#20

Post by nadermx »

jdietrich wrote: post #8
wat10000 wrote: post #4

“ Keep in mind that AI models, like most things, are considered intellectual property. Before using or modifying any extracted models, you need the explicit permission of their owner.” That’s not true, is it? It would be a copyright violation to distribute an extracted model, but you can do what you want with it yourself.

Circumventing a copy-prevention system without a valid exemption is a crime, even if you don't make unlawful copies. Copyright covers the right to make copies, not the right to distribute; "doing what you want with it yourself" may or may not be covered by fair use. Whether or not model weights are copyrightable remains an open question. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201

Actually, in terms of copyright control "The Federal Circuit went on to clarify the nature of the DMCA's anti-circumvention provisions. The DMCA established causes of action for liability and did not establish a property right. Therefore, circumvention is not infringement in itself."[1]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamberlain_Group,_Inc._v._S...

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