A new model of school in Sweden • Hacker News Board

Re: A new model of school in Sweden

#11

Post by bokonist » Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 2:03 PM UTC

ivarkotnik wrote: post #4

dwerthen wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually went to Kunskapsskolan as the equivalent of a High School student. Graduated in 2005. It work out very well for me, the freedom to go about the curriculum at my own pace suited me perfectly. The experience of going there was very much like what you would find at a university. The school demanded a very high level of motivation and discipline. And this makes it problematic, since quite a lot of students at…

Definitely the wrong direction, because it can go wrong on so many ways. Myself I am a victim of for-profit education (well, my spouse is), effectively locked in by contract at a company for 10+ years more. It sounds so good in the beginning, but once you finish your studies and you stand in front of that loong walk...

How is your spouse locked by contract for 10 years due to for-profit education?

Re: A new model of school in Sweden

#12

Post by marbleint » Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 2:20 PM UTC

gahahaha wrote: post #5

The experiences that were made from privatizing Swedish schools were: * generally worse results and increased inequality * 5 companies dominate the market, and makes huge profits * Sweden has fallen from 3rd to 19th on the PISA test in reading. * huge quality differences between schools * schools have become a "sorting machine" where motivated parents and pupils choose certain schools and avoid other schools. * The e…

Yeah, any data to back this up would be great

Re: A new model of school in Sweden

#13

Post by Muzza » Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 2:21 PM UTC

hjalle wrote: post #10

Muzza wrote: post #9

The school system in Sweden is many things (despicable, horrendous, etc etc), but free market it is not. These private schools don't operate on a free market - the government supplies the "customers" (students) under penalty of prison* for the students' parents, for crying out loud. * Or possibly even worse: a student who doesn't go to school is liable to end up in the clutches of the meddling welfare board.

I think I didn't really get this comment. Care to explain further?

I'll try, but I don't see how I can make it any simpler.

These "free market" schools receive payments from the government for each student they have.

The government mandates that everyone attend school between the ages of 7 and 16 (or 6 and 15).

This is not a free market. You cannot have the government create customers like this in a free market.

Re: A new model of school in Sweden

#14

Post by Muzza » Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 2:56 PM UTC

gahahaha wrote: post #5

The experiences that were made from privatizing Swedish schools were: * generally worse results and increased inequality * 5 companies dominate the market, and makes huge profits * Sweden has fallen from 3rd to 19th on the PISA test in reading. * huge quality differences between schools * schools have become a "sorting machine" where motivated parents and pupils choose certain schools and avoid other schools. * The e…

Now, since I'm not in favor of any form of mandatory schooling it doesn't really matter to me exactly why the Swedish schools suck... But you must keep in mind that there was another, rather large reform in the early 90's: the responsibility for the schools were transferred from the state to the municipalities. This hasn't exactly worked out well either and surely has had impact on the PISA rankings (see e.g Maciej Zaremba's articles in DN, http://www.dn.se/kultur-noje/maciej-zaremba-en-forolampning-... ).

Re: A new model of school in Sweden

#15

Post by yesbabyyes » Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 2:58 PM UTC

Egregore wrote: post #8

gahahaha wrote: post #5

The experiences that were made from privatizing Swedish schools were: * generally worse results and increased inequality * 5 companies dominate the market, and makes huge profits * Sweden has fallen from 3rd to 19th on the PISA test in reading. * huge quality differences between schools * schools have become a "sorting machine" where motivated parents and pupils choose certain schools and avoid other schools. * The e…

Can you provide any links?

On PISA tests:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Stu... http://www.localschoolsnetwork.org.uk/2011/01/why-gove-no-lo...

Article from Swedish Radio:

http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&#38...

Report on OECD report:

http://www.antidotenews.org.uk/?p=628&dm_i=LEV,ACD6,33QO...

Mostly it's in Swedish media, though. And what's been most criticized is the ability to extract profit from state funds, given that the biggest independent schools are owned by off-shore VC companies. The situation is similar with Swedish healthcare.

Re: A new model of school in Sweden

#16

Post by Retric » Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 3:10 PM UTC

Muzza wrote: post #13

hjalle wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I didn't really get this comment. Care to explain further?

I'll try, but I don't see how I can make it any simpler. These "free market" schools receive payments from the government for each student they have. The government mandates that everyone attend school between the ages of 7 and 16 (or 6 and 15). This is not a free market. You cannot have the government create customers like this in a free market.

That's a BS semantic argument. First off you can be 'home schooled'. Far more importantly the question is does privatizing the school system improve average student performance OR lower costs and the answer is no.

Re: A new model of school in Sweden

#17

Post by matbec » Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 3:30 PM UTC

It's interesting that no mention was made of the Sweden's extremely poor policies and record with respect to homeschooling. There has been a lot of press the past few years over the Johansson family (child seized for being homeschooled) to the Himmelstrand family (severe fines for homeschooling). Here is a link to an HSLDA collection of other links that specifically address homeschooling in Sweden (http://www.hslda.org/hs/international/Sweden/).

Re: A new model of school in Sweden

#18

Post by treerock » Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 3:33 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #16

Muzza wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll try, but I don't see how I can make it any simpler. These "free market" schools receive payments from the government for each student they have. The government mandates that everyone attend school between the ages of 7 and 16 (or 6 and 15). This is not a free market. You cannot have the government create customers like this in a free market.

That's a BS semantic argument. First off you can be 'home schooled'. Far more importantly the question is does privatizing the school system improve average student performance OR lower costs and the answer is no.

It's not bullshit. The government are effectively outsourcing education to private companies. That's always going to result in rent-seeking on the part of the private companies. And it's not the same as free market/full privatisation, where the parents would pay the schools.

(Not that I think private schooling would be better or cheaper than publicly funded schooling.)

Re: A new model of school in Sweden

#19

Post by Muzza » Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 3:37 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #16

Muzza wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll try, but I don't see how I can make it any simpler. These "free market" schools receive payments from the government for each student they have. The government mandates that everyone attend school between the ages of 7 and 16 (or 6 and 15). This is not a free market. You cannot have the government create customers like this in a free market.

That's a BS semantic argument. First off you can be 'home schooled'. Far more importantly the question is does privatizing the school system improve average student performance OR lower costs and the answer is no.

What on earth do you mean? Someone (the article) claimed the system was free market. I showed otherwise. It's about as far from semantic BS arguments as you can come.

I was not debating the efficiency of the private schools visavi public schools. Introducing strawmen is stupid.

Also: home schooling has been illegal in Sweden since 2010.

Re: A new model of school in Sweden

#20

Post by olifante » Wed, Jul 18, 2012, 4:26 PM UTC

Muzza wrote: post #9

The school system in Sweden is many things (despicable, horrendous, etc etc), but free market it is not. These private schools don't operate on a free market - the government supplies the "customers" (students) under penalty of prison* for the students' parents, for crying out loud. * Or possibly even worse: a student who doesn't go to school is liable to end up in the clutches of the meddling welfare board.

I very much doubt that the Swedish school system can be seriously described as despicable or horrendous, even if it has fallen from its former glory. Would you care to elaborate?