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Bertrand Russell on Zionism [video]

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Re: Bertrand Russell on Zionism [video]

#11

Post by throwaway290 »

ofcourseyoudo wrote: post #9
throwaway290 wrote: post #3

This doesn't need to be a link to some random dude's video because there's a perfectly fine Wikipedia article about Bertrand Russell and his views. He held a variety of views and I hope this particular dude doesn't intend to paint Russell as source of truth. > In 1929, he wrote that people deemed "mentally defective" and "feebleminded" should be sexually sterilised because they "are apt to have enormous numbers of il…

He was wrong about some things and right about Zionism. This didn't need to be a random dude's walk through Russell's wikipedia page because there's a perfectly fine link here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertrand_Russell "No people anywhere in the world would accept being expelled en masse from their own country; how can anyone require the people of Palestine to accept a punishment which nobody else would tolerate…

[flagged]

Re: Bertrand Russell on Zionism [video]

#12

Post by cies »

austin-cheney wrote: post #5
cies wrote: post #2

Israel has exceptionally great PR, especially with people in power. Palestinians have horrible PR (carrying dead bodies on the crowd's hands in tiny streets, is not something westeners relate to). In Europe a large part of a generation believes that the holocaust is the reason the state of Israel needs to be. Why is Israel not founded on a repurposed piece of Germany then?

Numerous polls indicate younger generations strongly favor the Palestinian side of the conflict in direct opposition to older generations. That being said I would say PR is not working out for Israel. I suspect that is because older generations remember the PLO as a major terrorist organization supported by numerous other terrorist organizations. Although most of the world still sees Hamas as a terrorist organization…

> That being said I would say PR is not working out for Israel.

In the long run not. That's I believe why we see so much aggression: time's running out for 'm.

> I suspect that is because ...

I think it is because the older generations believed corporate media. Younger gens get their news from elsewhere. If you picture the "conflict" in numbers you will see the Palestinians suffered much greater losses, while Israel plays the victim card on every occasion. Kids simply dont buy it.

Re: Bertrand Russell on Zionism [video]

#13

Post by i_am_a_peasant »

Oof, most people in tech's take on Israel that I ever met usually are along the lines of "I'm not touching that".

I'm not gonna pretend I'm on some moral high ground or whatever. As a Jew I'm just happy I wasn't actually born in Israel and didn't inherit all the problems that come with it.

Before Oct 7 I was seeing more and more of the arab world normalize relations with Israel. Now it's all gone down the drain again.

I also don't think Israel is demographically sustainable, all the ultra religious people have like 8-12 kids, the seculars maybe 3. Sooner or later that's just gonna explode in people's face.

My position on the whole conflict is along the lines of "everybody sucks". The descendants of the arabs that chose to cooperate with Israel became Israeli citizens, the descendants of the arabs that chose to not, are in a world of sh*t.

It's kind of hard to be reasonable when you have every reason to be resentful. Even when there are reasonable people, if they try to change something they'd mostly be pissing in the wind because the established leadership is funded by Iran and has no interest in improving the situation for anyone but themselves.

Israel also is very good at making their neighbors hate them by pulling all sort of dick moves and giving far right wingers a green light to do whatever the hell they want.

It's all bs and I want none of it. I will on purpose not marry a Jewish woman just to make sure my kids aren't Jewish and they're less likely to be tempted to swallow the nationalistic bs that makes gullible young people who want to be special and different sign into getting themselves blown up or shot for a cause that's just not worth it.

Wow I got more emotional than I thought I would.

Re: Bertrand Russell on Zionism [video]

#14

Post by jedimind »

i_am_a_peasant wrote: post #13

Oof, most people in tech's take on Israel that I ever met usually are along the lines of "I'm not touching that". I'm not gonna pretend I'm on some moral high ground or whatever. As a Jew I'm just happy I wasn't actually born in Israel and didn't inherit all the problems that come with it. Before Oct 7 I was seeing more and more of the arab world normalize relations with Israel. Now it's all gone down the drain again…

>My position on the whole conflict is along the lines of "everybody sucks".

That's like calling the holocaust a "conflict" and that in that "conflict" everybody sucked. That's the kind of bothsidesism you would have gotten away with before Israel's genocide[1] of Palestinians which led people to studying the history[2] of Palestine and the history of Zionism and realizing that this "conflict" is not some random accident but the outcome of a carefully crafted colonial project by secular european-jews with nationalist ambitions - long before the holocaust. For these secular jews, who also considered colonizing Uganda, Madagascar, Cyprus, Argentina (Baron Hirsch's colonization project), Birobidzhan - USSR (Jewish Autonomous Oblast), Alaska (Slattery Report proposal), British Guiana, judaism was simply a useful tool to legitimize their colonial project: "Most Zionists don't believe that God exists, but they do believe that he promised them Palestine".

[1] https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/prof-amos-go...

[2] https://web.archive.org/web/20231029055310/ojp.gov/ncjrs/vir...

Re: Bertrand Russell on Zionism [video]

#15

Post by rramadass »

Bertrand Russell would have been better served if he had studied his own country's role in creating the Israel/Palestine problem. The British Empire laid the seeds of almost all the inter-country/inter-ethnicity/inter-religious/etc. conflicts plaguing the world today but they have conveniently washed their hands off of all of it.

On the Palestine problem; Britain in Palestine 1917-1948 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOJqLTc6RkU

The British Empire Was Much Worse Than You Realize - https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/04/04/the-british-em... and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42558142

There is a reason that the term Perfidious Albion exists - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfidious_Albion

Finally; Bill Clinton did negotiate a two state solution to the Palestine/Israel problem but Yasser Arafat/PLO rejected it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTC5bq-lfoI

Re: Bertrand Russell on Zionism [video]

#16

Post by invalidname »

i_am_a_peasant wrote: post #13

Oof, most people in tech's take on Israel that I ever met usually are along the lines of "I'm not touching that". I'm not gonna pretend I'm on some moral high ground or whatever. As a Jew I'm just happy I wasn't actually born in Israel and didn't inherit all the problems that come with it. Before Oct 7 I was seeing more and more of the arab world normalize relations with Israel. Now it's all gone down the drain again…

[flagged]

Re: Bertrand Russell on Zionism [video]

#17

Post by invalidname »

jedimind wrote: post #14
i_am_a_peasant wrote: post #13

Oof, most people in tech's take on Israel that I ever met usually are along the lines of "I'm not touching that". I'm not gonna pretend I'm on some moral high ground or whatever. As a Jew I'm just happy I wasn't actually born in Israel and didn't inherit all the problems that come with it. Before Oct 7 I was seeing more and more of the arab world normalize relations with Israel. Now it's all gone down the drain again…

>My position on the whole conflict is along the lines of "everybody sucks". That's like calling the holocaust a "conflict" and that in that "conflict" everybody sucked. That's the kind of bothsidesism you would have gotten away with before Israel's genocide[1] of Palestinians which led people to studying the history[2] of Palestine and the history of Zionism and realizing that this "conflict" is not some random accid…

[flagged]

Re: Bertrand Russell on Zionism [video]

#18

Post by AnimalMuppet »

ofcourseyoudo wrote: post #9
throwaway290 wrote: post #3

This doesn't need to be a link to some random dude's video because there's a perfectly fine Wikipedia article about Bertrand Russell and his views. He held a variety of views and I hope this particular dude doesn't intend to paint Russell as source of truth. > In 1929, he wrote that people deemed "mentally defective" and "feebleminded" should be sexually sterilised because they "are apt to have enormous numbers of il…

He was wrong about some things and right about Zionism. This didn't need to be a random dude's walk through Russell's wikipedia page because there's a perfectly fine link here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertrand_Russell "No people anywhere in the world would accept being expelled en masse from their own country; how can anyone require the people of Palestine to accept a punishment which nobody else would tolerate…

Honest question: Were they expelled, or did they flee? Or some of both?

I think the difference matters. "I'm not living with those people in charge" and then fighting for the better part of a century to throw them out, gets less sympathy from me than "they threw me out".

On the other hand, I have some sympathy for Cuban exiles, so maybe I'm inconsistent...

Re: Bertrand Russell on Zionism [video]

#19

Post by throwaway290 »

rramadass wrote: post #15

Bertrand Russell would have been better served if he had studied his own country's role in creating the Israel/Palestine problem. The British Empire laid the seeds of almost all the inter-country/inter-ethnicity/inter-religious/etc. conflicts plaguing the world today but they have conveniently washed their hands off of all of it. On the Palestine problem; Britain in Palestine 1917-1948 - https://www.youtube.com/watch…

All good points. After Ottoman empire literally every country there except Egypt is an artificial creation. Europe divided the region.

And I am not talking about people or religions. Jews, Arabs, Christians, etc all lived there for a long time. Under Ottoman empire with all its faults they had fair autonomy and religious pluralism. After the empire fell someone thought let's just put them in different places and everything will be fine. That guaranteed chaos and displacement.

Re: Bertrand Russell on Zionism [video]

#20

Post by throwaway290 »

ofcourseyoudo wrote: post #9
throwaway290 wrote: post #3

This doesn't need to be a link to some random dude's video because there's a perfectly fine Wikipedia article about Bertrand Russell and his views. He held a variety of views and I hope this particular dude doesn't intend to paint Russell as source of truth. > In 1929, he wrote that people deemed "mentally defective" and "feebleminded" should be sexually sterilised because they "are apt to have enormous numbers of il…

He was wrong about some things and right about Zionism. This didn't need to be a random dude's walk through Russell's wikipedia page because there's a perfectly fine link here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertrand_Russell "No people anywhere in the world would accept being expelled en masse from their own country; how can anyone require the people of Palestine to accept a punishment which nobody else would tolerate…

I believe people here are capable of finding an article on Wikipedia on their own. I just highlighted that this person had some opinions that are pretty out there and implying "this is true because this guy said so" is not a good logic.

It's telling that a bunch of my comments were flagged. (The guy who pointedly suggested that I must be a Jew to have this view however wasn't.)

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