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LadyCoders 2012 -- a Kickstarter project to help more women in software

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Re: LadyCoders 2012 -- a Kickstarter project to help more women in software

#11

Post by kondro »

tanglisha wrote: post #9
kondro wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trouble is, none of this (with the exception of childbirth, and there are plenty of stay-at-home Dads) is gender-specific. Unfortunately, all continuing to enforce how special women are (either positively or negatively, in this case) is to keep women thinking they need specialised tools to succeed. As a man, no one taught me how to interview well, or come back to the workforce after taking an extended break to ca…

Women and men are raised differently. Things that come natural to you, having been raised male, do not come naturally to a large number of women. Examples include how to make eye contact in an interview and how to shake hands properly. It is very common for women to be raised with an attitude of quietly waiting to be noticed, rather than pointing out their good traits and skills. This can leave them a bit lost when i…

For each of these issues I can come up with a counter-point but it won't really solve anything.

I agree that having this information available is a positive thing.

Limiting it to either women, or even women in IT seems to be part of the problem (not the solution), in my opinion. By all means, market a generic series at women who may be having these problems, but I fail to see how limiting the audience to ONLY women stands up for equality.

Re: LadyCoders 2012 -- a Kickstarter project to help more women in software

#12

Post by jacques_chester »

kondro wrote: post #3

Sigh… if women wanted to be developers they would become developers. Almost all the successful developers I know started creating software (or at least wanted to make computers do things that they weren't immediately able to do) at a young age. Even you believe it is an issue (and I don't know why it is necessary that 50% of all developers need to be women), this isn't a problem you can fix by talking to a bunch of a…

Let me see if I understand you correctly.

Women are raised differently. Clearly their fault.

Women are treated differently just because they are women. Clearly their fault.

The industry shows a universal shortage of women. It couldn't possibly be because of strawman-punching attitudes like yours. Clearly their fault.

In other contexts this is known as "blaming the victim" and it is generally considered to be a) piss-poor reasoning and b) even offensive.

Re: LadyCoders 2012 -- a Kickstarter project to help more women in software

#13

Post by jacques_chester »

kondro wrote: post #11
tanglisha wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women and men are raised differently. Things that come natural to you, having been raised male, do not come naturally to a large number of women. Examples include how to make eye contact in an interview and how to shake hands properly. It is very common for women to be raised with an attitude of quietly waiting to be noticed, rather than pointing out their good traits and skills. This can leave them a bit lost when i…

For each of these issues I can come up with a counter-point but it won't really solve anything. I agree that having this information available is a positive thing. Limiting it to either women, or even women in IT seems to be part of the problem (not the solution), in my opinion. By all means, market a generic series at women who may be having these problems, but I fail to see how limiting the audience to ONLY women s…

Again, let me see if I have you right.

A project launched by women, aimed at women, because women are an observable rarity in our industry ... is against equality.

This isn't affirmative action. It's not a hiring policy. It's a private sector effort by interested individuals who want to help others like them.

Re: LadyCoders 2012 -- a Kickstarter project to help more women in software

#14

Post by jacques_chester »

oellegaard wrote: post #8
kondro wrote: post #3

Sigh… if women wanted to be developers they would become developers. Almost all the successful developers I know started creating software (or at least wanted to make computers do things that they weren't immediately able to do) at a young age. Even you believe it is an issue (and I don't know why it is necessary that 50% of all developers need to be women), this isn't a problem you can fix by talking to a bunch of a…

I couldn't agree more. I had this discussion with several people during Djangocon EU, where we had several talks at the conference about women in the community. People doesn't care about gender, they care about good code.

> People doesn't care about gender, they care about good code.

Actually, no. People are people. We are not abstract logic machines, disinterested minds floating across a sea of pure symbolic manipulation.

It really bugs me when software people have this subtle arrogance that human fallibility is something that happens to other people. Oh other people can be biased or form toxic norms, but not us, we're an elite subculture.

Re: LadyCoders 2012 -- a Kickstarter project to help more women in software

#15

Post by tanglisha »

kondro wrote: post #11
tanglisha wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women and men are raised differently. Things that come natural to you, having been raised male, do not come naturally to a large number of women. Examples include how to make eye contact in an interview and how to shake hands properly. It is very common for women to be raised with an attitude of quietly waiting to be noticed, rather than pointing out their good traits and skills. This can leave them a bit lost when i…

For each of these issues I can come up with a counter-point but it won't really solve anything. I agree that having this information available is a positive thing. Limiting it to either women, or even women in IT seems to be part of the problem (not the solution), in my opinion. By all means, market a generic series at women who may be having these problems, but I fail to see how limiting the audience to ONLY women s…

The information is targeted at women, because that's what we are. We will not turn anyone away, man, woman, trans, or otherwise: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/166494057/ladycoders-get...

In my opinion, targeting a message makes more sense than trying to make it overly broad to cover everyone, that only dilutes the information. You, of course, are welcome to disagree :)

Re: LadyCoders 2012 -- a Kickstarter project to help more women in software

#16

Post by dudeanon842 »

I have seen this kind of thing first hand. Men are taught to never show weakness, and are full of bragadocio in interviews. Women are taught to be humble. If you speak up or be assertive you get labelled a bitch. Thankfully this is changing in mainstream society.

There are some places where this change is happening more slowly than others, and the tech industry definitely needs a boost in this area. A massive part of the problem is that many men in the industry are simply blind to the problem. It's not a problem for them so they just go along with the status quo.

Re: LadyCoders 2012 -- a Kickstarter project to help more women in software

#17

Post by kondro »

jacques_chester wrote: post #13
kondro wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For each of these issues I can come up with a counter-point but it won't really solve anything. I agree that having this information available is a positive thing. Limiting it to either women, or even women in IT seems to be part of the problem (not the solution), in my opinion. By all means, market a generic series at women who may be having these problems, but I fail to see how limiting the audience to ONLY women s…

Again, let me see if I have you right. A project launched by women, aimed at women, because women are an observable rarity in our industry ... is against equality. This isn't affirmative action. It's not a hiring policy. It's a private sector effort by interested individuals who want to help others like them.

In my experience, it always pays to substitute the subject to the broader version when determining if something is discriminatory.

How does this project sound?

"A project [to empower men], launched by men, aimed at men, because men are an observable majority in our industry."

Re: LadyCoders 2012 -- a Kickstarter project to help more women in software

#18

Post by jacques_chester »

kondro wrote: post #17
jacques_chester wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, let me see if I have you right. A project launched by women, aimed at women, because women are an observable rarity in our industry ... is against equality. This isn't affirmative action. It's not a hiring policy. It's a private sector effort by interested individuals who want to help others like them.

In my experience, it always pays to substitute the subject to the broader version when determining if something is discriminatory. How does this project sound? "A project [to empower men], launched by men, aimed at men, because men are an observable majority in our industry."

> In my experience, it always pays to substitute the subject to the broader version when determining if something is discriminatory.

How does that follow? I'd genuinely like to know your reasoning.

Re: LadyCoders 2012 -- a Kickstarter project to help more women in software

#19

Post by prodigal_erik »

kondro wrote: post #5
tanglisha wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I'm one of the people on this project. The point of this project is not to convince women to go into tech, that is completely out of scope. The point is to help women that are qualified but don't interview well or know how to deal with some of the issues unique to women that either raise eyebrows or can cause confusion in an interview. The women we're targeting include recent graduates, those who left the…

The trouble is, none of this (with the exception of childbirth, and there are plenty of stay-at-home Dads) is gender-specific. Unfortunately, all continuing to enforce how special women are (either positively or negatively, in this case) is to keep women thinking they need specialised tools to succeed. As a man, no one taught me how to interview well, or come back to the workforce after taking an extended break to ca…

They have to target a sympathetic group or they probably wouldn't get donations. Hardly anyone gives a crap what happens to men, especially other men. I'm actually unsure whether or not I would want my rivals to be better at negotiating and interviewing (driving market rates higher but closer to unsustainable levels, and schmoozing into positions that few of any gender are qualified for).

Re: LadyCoders 2012 -- a Kickstarter project to help more women in software

#20

Post by kondro »

jacques_chester wrote: post #18
kondro wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, it always pays to substitute the subject to the broader version when determining if something is discriminatory. How does this project sound? "A project [to empower men], launched by men, aimed at men, because men are an observable majority in our industry."

> In my experience, it always pays to substitute the subject to the broader version when determining if something is discriminatory. How does that follow? I'd genuinely like to know your reasoning.

I come from a minority myself (gay from the ironically named Queensland) and find people say the stupidest things that, if modified as suggested, they would be embarrassed to say about themselves.
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