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Groupon moves headquarters to Berlin (German, English summary)

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Re: Groupon moves headquarters to Berlin (German, English summary)

#11

Post by kintamanimatt »

davidw wrote: post #10
Xylakant wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Opening a company in Germany, for instance, is not as cheap/simple as an LLC in many US states or an Ltd in the UK. That really depends on what kind of LLC you want to open. There the so-called "UG Haftungsbeschränkt" which was created as response to the British Ltd. and costs somewhat less than 200 Euros + whatever capital you want to invest. For larger enterprises, you'd probably found a GmbH which usually costs…

With the UG, you are required to sock away capital until you hit the 25K, though, no? http://www.doingbusiness.org/data/exploreeconomies/germany/ vs http://www.doingbusiness.org/data/exploreeconomies/united-ki... UK still looks easier, and doesn't have any capital requirements. > minimum capital of 25.000 Euros This is a very continental European concept that, IMO, is basically useless. It's a number picked by some p…

IIRC the capital requirements don't have to be met with cash, but can be satisfied by things like IP. Developed an app? That could be included.

Re: Groupon moves headquarters to Berlin (German, English summary)

#12

Post by davidw »

kintamanimatt wrote: post #11
davidw wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the UG, you are required to sock away capital until you hit the 25K, though, no? http://www.doingbusiness.org/data/exploreeconomies/germany/ vs http://www.doingbusiness.org/data/exploreeconomies/united-ki... UK still looks easier, and doesn't have any capital requirements. > minimum capital of 25.000 Euros This is a very continental European concept that, IMO, is basically useless. It's a number picked by some p…

IIRC the capital requirements don't have to be met with cash, but can be satisfied by things like IP. Developed an app? That could be included.

Yes, but who evaluates how much it's worth? And why the hell should someone even have to be doing that? It's utterly useless bureaucracy. If the goal of having capital is to cover wages, say, should the company go under, then you should have that specific requirement, not some vague notion of 25K being a magical number.

Re: Groupon moves headquarters to Berlin (German, English summary)

#13

Post by Kliment »

davidw wrote: post #10
Xylakant wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Opening a company in Germany, for instance, is not as cheap/simple as an LLC in many US states or an Ltd in the UK. That really depends on what kind of LLC you want to open. There the so-called "UG Haftungsbeschränkt" which was created as response to the British Ltd. and costs somewhat less than 200 Euros + whatever capital you want to invest. For larger enterprises, you'd probably found a GmbH which usually costs…

With the UG, you are required to sock away capital until you hit the 25K, though, no? http://www.doingbusiness.org/data/exploreeconomies/germany/ vs http://www.doingbusiness.org/data/exploreeconomies/united-ki... UK still looks easier, and doesn't have any capital requirements. > minimum capital of 25.000 Euros This is a very continental European concept that, IMO, is basically useless. It's a number picked by some p…

I wrote about the process at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4215302

You are required to save capital, so you cannot pay yourself above a certain percentage in dividends, but you can still pay yourself salary, which is not subject to those limits.

It is easier in the UK if you are already in the UK, but living in Germany is certainly easier than living in the UK in terms of immigration rules.

Re: Groupon moves headquarters to Berlin (German, English summary)

#14

Post by patrickg »

_ak wrote: post #3
kintamanimatt wrote: post #2

Why is Belin becoming so popular? I could be very wrong, but Germany seems to be relatively harder jurisdiction within which to operate a business (especially a start-up), with the extra bureaucracy and harsher privacy laws. I'm surprised more American businesses aren't picking somewhere like Amsterdam if they're wanting to set up shop in continental Europe, especially with its lower immigration barriers for non-Euro…

Berlin is dead cheap. Cheap flats, cheap office space, several universities with CS programs, a laid-back life style, good living quality in many of the inner districts.

dead cheap is getting more and more to "starting to get expensive". Prices are rising so much the last years, especially in Kreuzberg and other cool places. Offices are also getting more expensive and harder to get. Currently looking for a nice and affordable office in Schöneberg... :(

I think it's time for killing the "Berlin is dead cheap" myth

Re: Groupon moves headquarters to Berlin (German, English summary)

#15

Post by kintamanimatt »

davidw wrote: post #12
kintamanimatt wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC the capital requirements don't have to be met with cash, but can be satisfied by things like IP. Developed an app? That could be included.

Yes, but who evaluates how much it's worth? And why the hell should someone even have to be doing that? It's utterly useless bureaucracy. If the goal of having capital is to cover wages, say, should the company go under, then you should have that specific requirement, not some vague notion of 25K being a magical number.

I agree, but in the absence of a change in company law, the option to be able to satisfy it with intangibles is ok. I think so long as the valuation is reasonable, it counts. Any decent-sized app would easily cost >€25k, and even the website can cost that much in some cases. It's easy to discount the value of our own work, but we shouldn't.

Plus, instead of handing over the copyright to the company, it might be possible to do something like grant an exclusive license to the company instead.

Re: Groupon moves headquarters to Berlin (German, English summary)

#17

Post by fab1an »

kintamanimatt wrote: post #2

Why is Belin becoming so popular? I could be very wrong, but Germany seems to be relatively harder jurisdiction within which to operate a business (especially a start-up), with the extra bureaucracy and harsher privacy laws. I'm surprised more American businesses aren't picking somewhere like Amsterdam if they're wanting to set up shop in continental Europe, especially with its lower immigration barriers for non-Euro…

Having hired two North Americans in Berlin (one from the US, one from Canada) I can say that the process is surprisingly streamlined and straightforward. Canada and Germany have a Youth Mobility Agreement that allows young Canadians to get their work permit within a week in Canada - for US-citizens you need to outline the reasons for hiring them over Germans and EU-citizens in writing. It suffices to state that you're looking for a native English speaker that would potentially be able to run an office in the US at some point. Done. The whole process took us less than 4 weeks and doesn't involve an attorney or any other significant legal fees. Applicants need to be able to present a bachelor's degree as a minimum though, so you wouldn't be able to hire the next Steve Jobs. Also, Berlin offers significant bang for the buck - the cost of living is (still) comparatively low and the city itself is simply amazing.

Re: Groupon moves headquarters to Berlin (German, English summary)

#19

Post by Gmo »

kintamanimatt wrote: post #2

Why is Belin becoming so popular? I could be very wrong, but Germany seems to be relatively harder jurisdiction within which to operate a business (especially a start-up), with the extra bureaucracy and harsher privacy laws. I'm surprised more American businesses aren't picking somewhere like Amsterdam if they're wanting to set up shop in continental Europe, especially with its lower immigration barriers for non-Euro…

Where do you get that Dutch immigration barriers are lower ? In my experience, that is not particularly the case.

Re: Groupon moves headquarters to Berlin (German, English summary)

#20

Post by rayiner »

davidw wrote: post #10
Xylakant wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Opening a company in Germany, for instance, is not as cheap/simple as an LLC in many US states or an Ltd in the UK. That really depends on what kind of LLC you want to open. There the so-called "UG Haftungsbeschränkt" which was created as response to the British Ltd. and costs somewhat less than 200 Euros + whatever capital you want to invest. For larger enterprises, you'd probably found a GmbH which usually costs…

With the UG, you are required to sock away capital until you hit the 25K, though, no? http://www.doingbusiness.org/data/exploreeconomies/germany/ vs http://www.doingbusiness.org/data/exploreeconomies/united-ki... UK still looks easier, and doesn't have any capital requirements. > minimum capital of 25.000 Euros This is a very continental European concept that, IMO, is basically useless. It's a number picked by some p…

Minimum capital requirements aren't useless. A limited liability entity is only liable up to its capital assets. This ensures that the company has capital assets to level against if it is sued by creditors, etc.
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