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Thoughts on the software industry (2022)

linus.coffee

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Re: Thoughts on the software industry (2022)

#11

Post by nayuki »

bruce511 wrote: post #3

Since the article jumps around a lot, let me add one more; Software is an amazing passion, but a terrible job. Imagine you love music, play the piano for hours every day, then once you grow up someone pays you a huge salary just to play. You're in heaven. Now imagine someone who loves classical music, but can't play. You see the fortunes being made by piano players, so you decide to learn. Which takes years of doing…

Your comment resonates with me a lot. I have a passion for programming, as evidenced by my website. I have a history of jobs that pay well (as far as Canada goes). But every job has been rather boring and have not been a good fit for my skills. Instead of doing deep technical work, I get to deal with ever-shifting requirements, poor communication, and almost nonexistent project management.

Re: Thoughts on the software industry (2022)

#12

Post by 4dregress »

bruce511 wrote: post #3

Since the article jumps around a lot, let me add one more; Software is an amazing passion, but a terrible job. Imagine you love music, play the piano for hours every day, then once you grow up someone pays you a huge salary just to play. You're in heaven. Now imagine someone who loves classical music, but can't play. You see the fortunes being made by piano players, so you decide to learn. Which takes years of doing…

I work with a bunch of people who fit into this mind set.

My view is that they want to play and not work to get things done.

I also see it as we are engineers first and foremost and we use a software language as a tool to solve a problem.

I’m also a musician who had the chance to make a living in audio production and nothing is worse than working on other peoples tedious projects, so decided to keep the art I love for myself and have a much better paid career in tech.

I guess it’s the opposite of what you’re saying.

Sounds like you need to find another job!

Re: Thoughts on the software industry (2022)

#13

Post by aeim »

syndicatedjelly wrote: post #8

As someone who does play music, although not professionally, I don't really agree with the analogy that writing code is like playing music. You don’t expect to learn how to play the piano by reading a book, but you might expect to pick up a programming language or concept because you read about it. Really, it doesn’t work that way. You have to read it, and then use it and practice it and make a hundred mistakes, and…

i hear you ;)

although i'd counter with the idea that it isn't code-writing which we practice continually to master the art, but world modelling: we model the world within the constraints of code in our mind, to become experienced enough to do so reliably, then usefully within different contexts

code is the instrument, not the music

Re: Thoughts on the software industry (2022)

#14

Post by 8f2ab37a-ed6c »

bruce511 wrote: post #3

Since the article jumps around a lot, let me add one more; Software is an amazing passion, but a terrible job. Imagine you love music, play the piano for hours every day, then once you grow up someone pays you a huge salary just to play. You're in heaven. Now imagine someone who loves classical music, but can't play. You see the fortunes being made by piano players, so you decide to learn. Which takes years of doing…

> The passionate thrive because the joy dwarfs the pain. (Also, because they tend to be -very- good so can largely ignore the bullshit. They're paid well doing something they'd do for free.

I've thought to myself many times that I still can't believe someone is paying me to code, whether that's an investor or an employer. I happily do it for free even when unemployed, or practically for free for years on end when working on early stage startups as a co-founder. I've often wondered what this must feel like for people who don't actually like any of it, when for many of us it feels like play.

Re: Thoughts on the software industry (2022)

#15

Post by tonyedgecombe »

syndicatedjelly wrote: post #8

As someone who does play music, although not professionally, I don't really agree with the analogy that writing code is like playing music. You don’t expect to learn how to play the piano by reading a book, but you might expect to pick up a programming language or concept because you read about it. Really, it doesn’t work that way. You have to read it, and then use it and practice it and make a hundred mistakes, and…

If you write a lot of C code then you will write a lot of loops. It won't be deliberate practice but it will be practice.

What I find interesting is how much of this knowledge we take for granted once we have internalised it. My wife came into my study the other day and asked what I was doing so I started to explain it. After she ran away I counted up the number of concepts I needed to know to understand the twenty five lines of code I was looking at. There were nearly forty in that short piece of code.

Re: Thoughts on the software industry (2022)

#16

Post by 8f2ab37a-ed6c »

Swizec wrote: post #10
ludicity wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spend a lot of time talking to non-I.T people due to my partner being a veterinarian and the local improv/music scene. The absolute disdain people have for the idea of sitting at a desk and taking orders from pointy-haired manager is humbling. They're very envious of things like remote work, etc, so we have it pretty cool in lots of ways, but I think there's something to learn for many programmers on the mental hea…

> The most passionate software engineers I know might be able to claim similar joy, but they have overwhelmingly quit their corporate gigs and fly solo. I have done the solo thing and have come to realize I much prefer coding for others. There’s just too much annoying bullshit in running a business and I don’t need to deal with almost any of that as an employee despite getting basically all the same freedom, impact,…

Agreed. Managing, fundraising, legal, roadmaps, payroll, hiring, sales, marketing, customer support etc. If you're a coder running a company, it's likely you might not get to code at all, or ever again if you're very successful. I wouldn't do my own business if my hope was to be more hands-on with software dev unless you find a partner to whom you outsource all of the above, but now you're back to the situation where you don't have full control anymore.

If you're happy with not having a bigger slice of the pie, it's easier to just focus on SWE as an employee and let someone else figure out all of the other stuff unless you really crave the company building aspect.

Re: Thoughts on the software industry (2022)

#17

Post by grey-area »

bruce511 wrote: post #3

Since the article jumps around a lot, let me add one more; Software is an amazing passion, but a terrible job. Imagine you love music, play the piano for hours every day, then once you grow up someone pays you a huge salary just to play. You're in heaven. Now imagine someone who loves classical music, but can't play. You see the fortunes being made by piano players, so you decide to learn. Which takes years of doing…

You seem to have a terrible job, you should fix that.

Meanwhile many people happily make a living programming in a mostly stress-free, creative environment where every day brings new challenges and the codebase is well ordered and easy to navigate.

Also, tracking down bugs is fun! I can see how it would not be fun in a terrible codebase and have experienced that side of things, but nobody is forcing you to work at a particular company.

Re: Thoughts on the software industry (2022)

#18

Post by SupremumLimit »

brink wrote: post #5
bruce511 wrote: post #3

Since the article jumps around a lot, let me add one more; Software is an amazing passion, but a terrible job. Imagine you love music, play the piano for hours every day, then once you grow up someone pays you a huge salary just to play. You're in heaven. Now imagine someone who loves classical music, but can't play. You see the fortunes being made by piano players, so you decide to learn. Which takes years of doing…

The funny thing is 15 years ago, programming was nearly everyone's passion for those that were in the field. There were very few "job" type programmers. Not the case today.

I’d say the same thing except about 25-30 years ago and definitely not 15, which suggests to me that both of us suffer from observer bias and likely there’s always been a real mix of programmers who were really into it and others who were only after a job. Perhaps the proportion of uninterested programmers has increased though.

Re: Thoughts on the software industry (2022)

#19

Post by intelVISA »

bruce511 wrote: post #3

Since the article jumps around a lot, let me add one more; Software is an amazing passion, but a terrible job. Imagine you love music, play the piano for hours every day, then once you grow up someone pays you a huge salary just to play. You're in heaven. Now imagine someone who loves classical music, but can't play. You see the fortunes being made by piano players, so you decide to learn. Which takes years of doing…

Like all crafts it depends on your market position.

If you're good enough to have more control over the terms of your indenture then it's a pretty solid career. The complaints you level are the same for any job where you're not trusted with much autonomy.

Re: Thoughts on the software industry (2022)

#20

Post by tonyedgecombe »

syndicatedjelly wrote: post #9
ludicity wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spend a lot of time talking to non-I.T people due to my partner being a veterinarian and the local improv/music scene. The absolute disdain people have for the idea of sitting at a desk and taking orders from pointy-haired manager is humbling. They're very envious of things like remote work, etc, so we have it pretty cool in lots of ways, but I think there's something to learn for many programmers on the mental hea…

"contempt" isn't the word I'd used to describe my feelings towards this existence. It would be more like a deep, existential sadness. That life can fall into these local minimums of optimization - where everything is, on average, good. - I'm happy, but not very - I'm financially successful, but not very - I like what I do, but too much - I'm comfortable, but not too comfortable. It's like my entire personality, likes…

>I'm financially successful, but not very

I read about some research recently where the researcher asked people how much money they earned and how much they would need to feel financially secure. No matter how much they earned they all felt they needed about 50% more.

It seems we are programmed to feel mildly dissatisfied no matter what our circumstances. I guess that is what drives us on.

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