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Making Online Notarization Legal

blog.signnow.com

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Re: Making Online Notarization Legal

#11

Post by mchusma »

tzs wrote: post #5
lesterbuck wrote: post #3

I was disturbed to see that pg killed an earlier thread on this company, on a rather flimsy basis. The financial industry is obviously ripe for disruption, but if those being disrupted can kick up enough dust to have HN erase all memory of a new idea, we have a bigger problem.

It was not a flimsy basis. The site was specifically claiming online notarization was legal in all states, if I recall correctly[1]. It is NOT legal in California. They now appear to have modified their claims. As far as I can see, they only say online signing is legal, not online notarization. [1] The Internet Archive has not crawled them since 2009, when the domain appears to have been used for something completely…

You are not recalling correctly, never stated it was legal for notaries in all states.

Re: Making Online Notarization Legal

#12

Post by mchusma »

rprasad wrote: post #7

I flagged this before and I am going to flag this again: this service is not legal in any state except Virginia and will not satisfy the in-person verification requirements of any state (except Virginia, which does not require in-person verification of identity). This does not mean the service is illegal; it simply means that this service cannot be used for any legal purposes in any state or federal jurisdiction (exc…

Perhaps you don't understant how bad the existing notary system is. In many states you don't need to keep even a record of the notarization (in a journal). Video evidence, multi-factor authentication, and other tools are all vastly superior.

Re: Making Online Notarization Legal

#13

Post by mchusma »

rprasad wrote: post #8
aisalwaysa wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not understanding the facts, online notarization IS legal in California... the notaries themselves can't be in California, but the signers can. Signers can notarize from anywhere in the world, including California, since the notaries follow Virginia law. It's like how lenders and credit companies often use Utah law (but can lend elsewhere) or corporations incorporate in Delaware.

No, online notarization is not legal anywhere in the world, except Virgnia. This is not at all similar to how lenders can use Utah law but incorporate in Delaware. Choice of legal forum is a contractual issue between private parties. Notorization is a legal issue involving the government. Notaries act as government agents when they notarize, so each legal jurisdiction gets to set the standards for legal notarization…

The National Association of Secretaries of State disagree with you, including in the following public report "Issues and Trends in State Notary Regulation: NASS Report on State Notarization Policies and Practice" found here: http://www.nass.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=ar...

Key Quotes Regarding electronic notarization: “New state and federal laws, such as the 2000 Electronic Signatures in Global and National Commerce Act (E-SIGN), authorize every state-commissioned notary in the nation to use electronic signatures in performing official acts.”

Regarding Out Of State Acceptance “State laws...already recognize the validity of out-of-state notarizations, the state and federal evidence rules that recognize notarial acts as self-authenticating, and the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the U.S. Constitution.”

States would have to pass legislation against online notarization to prevent its acceptance.

Several states have put out warnings, including the state of California. This notice was published prior to the legal change and has apparently not been reviewed by state counsel. We have received clarification, consistent with all communication from other states, that they are only concerned with online notarization conducted by their notaries.

Re: Making Online Notarization Legal

#14

Post by mchusma »

lesterbuck wrote: post #10
tzs wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was not a flimsy basis. The site was specifically claiming online notarization was legal in all states, if I recall correctly[1]. It is NOT legal in California. They now appear to have modified their claims. As far as I can see, they only say online signing is legal, not online notarization. [1] The Internet Archive has not crawled them since 2009, when the domain appears to have been used for something completely…

The exact legal details of is so/is not is hardly to be decided on Hacker News. I am disturbed that one side gets its opinion heard and -- poof! -- down the memory hole that topic goes. It's really just a small version of SOPA in our community. PayPal, when it launched, was illegal in all fifty states. Would Hacker News have suppressed discussions of PayPal's business model?

Good point. Virginia certainly seems to think that it is legal for notaries to notarize across state lines. Perhaps CA disagrees, but they have never really stated as such.

Re: Making Online Notarization Legal

#15

Post by lesterbuck »

rprasad wrote: post #7

I flagged this before and I am going to flag this again: this service is not legal in any state except Virginia and will not satisfy the in-person verification requirements of any state (except Virginia, which does not require in-person verification of identity). This does not mean the service is illegal; it simply means that this service cannot be used for any legal purposes in any state or federal jurisdiction (exc…

I must be missing something in your comment. Because something may have legal errors in its statement, you make some wild blanket statements about what computers can do. Wow. Just wow. I could probably find thousands of similar statements before the Federal e-sign law took effect.

"there are a lot of situations where things cannot be done through a computer"

I hope you meant a huge "yet" in front of your ridiculous blanket statement. Or were you working in the patent office last century and thought all the inventions were finished?

Something about a little post from a new company has people flagging an entrepreneur's story. This story is of interest to me as a hacker (I have a good friend in the notary business, and he wanted me to do some integration for him with the state) and I'm sure it's interesting to many other hackers. I met another guy at Microconf doing notary services online. But because you have some universal grasp of the complex and changing legal situation, and must take it upon yourself to protect consumers from actually learning about a new way to notarize documents, the entire topic should be flagged for removal. Heaven help us all if this is what Hacker News has become...

Re: Making Online Notarization Legal

#16

Post by guan »

rprasad wrote: post #8
aisalwaysa wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not understanding the facts, online notarization IS legal in California... the notaries themselves can't be in California, but the signers can. Signers can notarize from anywhere in the world, including California, since the notaries follow Virginia law. It's like how lenders and credit companies often use Utah law (but can lend elsewhere) or corporations incorporate in Delaware.

No, online notarization is not legal anywhere in the world, except Virgnia. This is not at all similar to how lenders can use Utah law but incorporate in Delaware. Choice of legal forum is a contractual issue between private parties. Notorization is a legal issue involving the government. Notaries act as government agents when they notarize, so each legal jurisdiction gets to set the standards for legal notarization…

At the very least, the question of whether out-of-state notarization must be accepted is disputed. Here’s a document on the FTC website by the National Notary Assocation, which states that “[b]ecause of the Full Faith and Credit clause of the U.S. Constitution, notarial acts performed by a Notary in one state have the same force and effect as if performed by a Notary in the respective state.”

http://www.ftc.gov/os/comments/factaidt/FBI%20Evid%20Memo1.p...

I couldn’t find any federal or other court decisions that state that a notarial act is not considered a “public act” under the Full Faith and Credit clause. Can you provide a citation?

Here’s testimony before a House of Representatives committee which states that out-of-state notarizations are often rejected, but usually for formalistic and not substantive reasons:

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/judiciary/hju26412.000/...

Re: Making Online Notarization Legal

#17

Post by terryk88a »

I'm really excited to see this concept made real.

Based on comments here, multi-factor (non-wallet) authentication is used to identify the parties. This method of ID verification is a technique that I helped pioneer at Equifax many years ago, and I've been disappointed that it hasn't ever really seemed to take off before. I occasionally see it in use here and there, but now really expect it to be recognized for its value. Not perfect for every case, but a useful tool nonetheless.

Cheers and way to go!

Re: Making Online Notarization Legal

#18

Post by tzs »

aisalwaysa wrote: post #6
tzs wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was not a flimsy basis. The site was specifically claiming online notarization was legal in all states, if I recall correctly[1]. It is NOT legal in California. They now appear to have modified their claims. As far as I can see, they only say online signing is legal, not online notarization. [1] The Internet Archive has not crawled them since 2009, when the domain appears to have been used for something completely…

You're not understanding the facts, online notarization IS legal in California... the notaries themselves can't be in California, but the signers can. Signers can notarize from anywhere in the world, including California, since the notaries follow Virginia law. It's like how lenders and credit companies often use Utah law (but can lend elsewhere) or corporations incorporate in Delaware.

The California Secretary of State says: "California law requires a person to appear personally before a notary public to obtain notarial acts like acknowledgments or jurats".

Re: Making Online Notarization Legal

#19

Post by rprasad »

guan wrote: post #16
rprasad wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, online notarization is not legal anywhere in the world, except Virgnia. This is not at all similar to how lenders can use Utah law but incorporate in Delaware. Choice of legal forum is a contractual issue between private parties. Notorization is a legal issue involving the government. Notaries act as government agents when they notarize, so each legal jurisdiction gets to set the standards for legal notarization…

At the very least, the question of whether out-of-state notarization must be accepted is disputed. Here’s a document on the FTC website by the National Notary Assocation, which states that “[b]ecause of the Full Faith and Credit clause of the U.S. Constitution, notarial acts performed by a Notary in one state have the same force and effect as if performed by a Notary in the respective state.” http://www.ftc.gov/os/co…

It's tricky. A notarial act is not a "public act" under the Full Faith and Credit clause because Congress has not defined it as a public act for purposes of the Clause, nor has it set forth rules for proving the public act. (A public act for Constitutional purposes generally means an official act performed by an elected or appointed official, but this definition is expanded by statute to include actions performed by other persons acting in the capacity of the state.) Nonetheless, despite Congressional authorization, it is generally treated as a public act by most state and federal rules of evidence.

States still can and do reject out-of-state notarizations if it fails to satisfy procedural requirements for notarization in that state. Notarization is a formal process--it has very little actual substance--so this effectively swallows up the impact of the Full Faith and Credit Clause.

Re: Making Online Notarization Legal

#20

Post by aisalwaysa »

tzs wrote: post #18
aisalwaysa wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not understanding the facts, online notarization IS legal in California... the notaries themselves can't be in California, but the signers can. Signers can notarize from anywhere in the world, including California, since the notaries follow Virginia law. It's like how lenders and credit companies often use Utah law (but can lend elsewhere) or corporations incorporate in Delaware.

The California Secretary of State says: "California law requires a person to appear personally before a notary public to obtain notarial acts like acknowledgments or jurats".

Yes, if you are a CALIFORNIA NOTARY than you must follow their requirements. NOT if you are a Virginia Notary, then you follow Virginia Law, and your clients, wherever they are in the world, adhere to your Virginia requirements.
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