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HTC wins swipe to unlock patent dispute against Apple

bbc.com

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Re: HTC wins swipe to unlock patent dispute against Apple

#11

Post by vibrunazo »

azakai wrote: post #3

> The judge said that HTC's "arc unlock" feature - which also involves a predefined gesture along a path shown on-screen - would have infringed Apple's technology had it not been for a device released in 2004. No, no, no. It is clearly obvious , the fact that there happens to also be prior art just adds insult to injury. If there had not been prior art, it would still be a frivolous, trivial patent. This is exactly w…

I perfectly agree. But how do you prove in court that it was obvious? Most countries do have that paragraph in their legislation stating patents need to be non-obvious to someone of similar skill. But you almost never see that being tested in court, because how the hell do you prove it?

One of the big problems with the patent system is that it tries to implement solutions that are not viable in practice. There's no good, plain, clear, and unbiased way to prove a patent is indeed trivial. Even if we us hackers look at each other and agree that it's trivial.

I'd love to live in a world where innovators of non trivial solutions were rewarded money from others, without punishing these other innovators. But that's not possible to implement in practice!

Re: HTC wins swipe to unlock patent dispute against Apple

#12

Post by azakai »

vibrunazo wrote: post #11
azakai wrote: post #3

> The judge said that HTC's "arc unlock" feature - which also involves a predefined gesture along a path shown on-screen - would have infringed Apple's technology had it not been for a device released in 2004. No, no, no. It is clearly obvious , the fact that there happens to also be prior art just adds insult to injury. If there had not been prior art, it would still be a frivolous, trivial patent. This is exactly w…

I perfectly agree. But how do you prove in court that it was obvious? Most countries do have that paragraph in their legislation stating patents need to be non-obvious to someone of similar skill. But you almost never see that being tested in court, because how the hell do you prove it? One of the big problems with the patent system is that it tries to implement solutions that are not viable in practice. There's no g…

I don't think this is so difficult. Something has to be nontrivial to practitioners in the relevant field, so just survey a few random software engineers - not some clerks at the patent office.

Pay them for their time, obviously, and that cost should come from the patent application fee.

If this were done the vast majority of software patents existing today would not have been granted. Which is probably why the system wouldn't do it.

Re: HTC wins swipe to unlock patent dispute against Apple

#13

Post by mkaltenecker »

azylman wrote: post #9
oraj wrote: post #6

"We remain disappointed that Apple continues to favour competition in the courtroom over competition in the marketplace." This. I do think that Apple is an innovative company which creates great products. But this does not in anyways justifies its actions in courtrooms all over the world trying to exploit a system that is clearly outdated.

I struggle to think of Apple as innovative - I consider them iterative. They DO make amazing, fantastic products. With few exceptions, however, their products tend to be things that are iterative improvements over already existing technology. For example, iPhone and iPad - both of these concepts (smartphone and tablet) already existed. Only, a lot of them were shitty before Apple came along. They basically swept thro…

They basically swept through and fixed everything that was wrong with these devices a.k.a. innovation.

Re: HTC wins swipe to unlock patent dispute against Apple

#14

Post by vibrunazo »

azakai wrote: post #12
vibrunazo wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I perfectly agree. But how do you prove in court that it was obvious? Most countries do have that paragraph in their legislation stating patents need to be non-obvious to someone of similar skill. But you almost never see that being tested in court, because how the hell do you prove it? One of the big problems with the patent system is that it tries to implement solutions that are not viable in practice. There's no g…

I don't think this is so difficult. Something has to be nontrivial to practitioners in the relevant field, so just survey a few random software engineers - not some clerks at the patent office. Pay them for their time, obviously, and that cost should come from the patent application fee. If this were done the vast majority of software patents existing today would not have been granted. Which is probably why the syste…

I really don't think it would be that simple to make sure that process in unbiased. And that the additional costs wouldn't make patenting exclusive to billionaire companies.

But I very sincerely hope you're right :)

Re: HTC wins swipe to unlock patent dispute against Apple

#15

Post by backprojection »

azakai wrote: post #12
vibrunazo wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I perfectly agree. But how do you prove in court that it was obvious? Most countries do have that paragraph in their legislation stating patents need to be non-obvious to someone of similar skill. But you almost never see that being tested in court, because how the hell do you prove it? One of the big problems with the patent system is that it tries to implement solutions that are not viable in practice. There's no g…

I don't think this is so difficult. Something has to be nontrivial to practitioners in the relevant field, so just survey a few random software engineers - not some clerks at the patent office. Pay them for their time, obviously, and that cost should come from the patent application fee. If this were done the vast majority of software patents existing today would not have been granted. Which is probably why the syste…

1. I think the obviousness of an idea might change throughout time. 2. What if one industry is dominated by two companies, in the sense that all the experts are employed by one or the other, then how could they be unbiassed?

Re: HTC wins swipe to unlock patent dispute against Apple

#17

Post by drcube »

backprojection wrote: post #15
azakai wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is so difficult. Something has to be nontrivial to practitioners in the relevant field, so just survey a few random software engineers - not some clerks at the patent office. Pay them for their time, obviously, and that cost should come from the patent application fee. If this were done the vast majority of software patents existing today would not have been granted. Which is probably why the syste…

1. I think the obviousness of an idea might change throughout time. 2. What if one industry is dominated by two companies, in the sense that all the experts are employed by one or the other, then how could they be unbiassed?

Simple. Monopolies and duopolies shouldn't be awarded patents, which are just monopolies themselves. Why award monopolies to monopolies?

Re: HTC wins swipe to unlock patent dispute against Apple

#18

Post by drcube »

studio625 wrote: post #4

What would the world look like if these patent trolls got their wishes?

Like the 20th century, with IBM and Ma Bell. Or else every industry will be just like the current monopoly and duopoly dominated electric utility, POTS phone service, and ISP industries. Once a company has staked a place in a new industry, every one else will barred from competing.

Re: HTC wins swipe to unlock patent dispute against Apple

#19

Post by scott_w »

Interesting how "prior art" can require a product to be released in a country to apply.

So, an international company can just see what is developed in another market, copy it and patent it in their own country?

I can understand this being the case in 1912, but we have the world wide web. Surely this concept is out of date?

Re: HTC wins swipe to unlock patent dispute against Apple

#20

Post by novalis »

"Apple declined to comment on the specifics of the case.

Instead it re-issued an earlier statement, saying: "We think competition is healthy, but competitors should create their own original technology, not steal ours.""

This reaks of disastrous lazy damage control PR.

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