Is this considered creepy in all cultures? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is this considered creepy in all cultures?

#11

Post by anextio » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 8:30 AM UTC

Loic wrote: post #4

It is not creepy in all fields. It is creepy in computer programming/science. The problem is the culture in this special field with a lot of allusion to pornography, sexual abuse, etc. When you have well known figures in the Ruby community explicitly telling that it is good to use porn to sell software technology, you have a problem. In my field, process engineering and biotechnology, even if some groups are extremel…

In what field is it not creepy to have a man keep a documented list of all the women contributors for purely 'curiosity' reasons?

Re: Is this considered creepy in all cultures?

#12

Post by ars » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 8:31 AM UTC

calibraxis wrote: post #6

rjknight wrote: post #3

I think the issue is the lack of consent. The data is freely available and anyone who wants to use it to compile lists of Perl developers can do so, but if you're going to put up a list of female developers without a) asking them first and b) presenting it in a context that anticipates and avoids the gender-politics objections to doing so, then you're going to get a negative reaction. It's probably something that sho…

So far, the only 3rd party blogpost on this linked here (Michael G Schwern's [1]) didn't link to the module nor author, so as not to "embarrass the author further". Many males serious about feminism (or "anti-patriarchy", whatever you want to call it) take care to not provoke costs which females must bear, and try to helpfully inform. Now, if you don't want to listen, please don't feel you're forced to. There's... ex…

Wow. Couldn't disagree more with that blog.

"This Is What A Computer Scientist Looks Like" is exactly the wrong way to "empower". It's a photo. Who cares what you look like? You are a programmer - the only thing I should care about is what your code looks like.

> [from the blog] Maybe give them the reigns to make the big decisions and you handle the grunt work.

Are you kidding? I should do that because they are female? That's terrible. You should not care what gender, or anything else, they are - except their ability.

If people need to see that there are others like them in a community (do they though?), then this module list is exactly right.

Re: Is this considered creepy in all cultures?

#13

Post by Loic » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 8:38 AM UTC

spindritf wrote: post #10

Loic wrote: post #4

It is not creepy in all fields. It is creepy in computer programming/science. The problem is the culture in this special field with a lot of allusion to pornography, sexual abuse, etc. When you have well known figures in the Ruby community explicitly telling that it is good to use porn to sell software technology, you have a problem. In my field, process engineering and biotechnology, even if some groups are extremel…

"Sex sells" is the big indictment of Ruby (and programming in general) community?

Yes, with respect to the situation of women in your community this is a problem. When you have highly visible people having such behaviour, it cripples down. It is always easier to cripple down bad behaviour than good one. More about it: http://www.motherjones.com/media/2012/04/silicon-valley-brog...

Re: Is this considered creepy in all cultures?

#14

Post by Loic » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 8:44 AM UTC

anextio wrote: post #11

Loic wrote: post #4

It is not creepy in all fields. It is creepy in computer programming/science. The problem is the culture in this special field with a lot of allusion to pornography, sexual abuse, etc. When you have well known figures in the Ruby community explicitly telling that it is good to use porn to sell software technology, you have a problem. In my field, process engineering and biotechnology, even if some groups are extremel…

In what field is it not creepy to have a man keep a documented list of all the women contributors for purely 'curiosity' reasons?

The fact is, in no other fields you would have people thinking about doing this. It is just that they do not care. It is not part of the culture to focus on women from a sexual/stalking point of view.

They only care about lack of women in management and engineering positions and the salary difference. Or how to better manage the maternity leaves in the company to keep interesting jobs for the women while potentially working only 80% while have small kids.

Re: Is this considered creepy in all cultures?

#15

Post by anextio » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 8:44 AM UTC

ars wrote: post #12

calibraxis wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far, the only 3rd party blogpost on this linked here (Michael G Schwern's [1]) didn't link to the module nor author, so as not to "embarrass the author further". Many males serious about feminism (or "anti-patriarchy", whatever you want to call it) take care to not provoke costs which females must bear, and try to helpfully inform. Now, if you don't want to listen, please don't feel you're forced to. There's... ex…

Wow. Couldn't disagree more with that blog. "This Is What A Computer Scientist Looks Like" is exactly the wrong way to "empower". It's a photo. Who cares what you look like? You are a programmer - the only thing I should care about is what your code looks like. > [from the blog] Maybe give them the reigns to make the big decisions and you handle the grunt work. Are you kidding? I should do that because they are femal…

> You should not care what gender, or anything else, they are - except their ability.

We don't live in that world. Neither do we live in a world where people of color are afforded the same opportunities as white people even though they have all the same rights.

Software (and tech in general) is a toxic and often extremely sexist community towards women. It's easy to take your attitude of "not caring", but that doesn't solve the problem, it simply shuts off the light so that nasty people can do their bidding in the dark.

> I should do that because they are female?

Yes, if it's a freaking thing about women, then they should have the last freaking word. :)

> If people need to see that there are others like them in a community (do they though?), then this module list is exactly right.

This is exactly the sort of blind, toxic attitude that some of us are trying to help destroy. If women who are CPAN authors want to organize a community amongst themselves, then it's up to them to decide how they want to go about doing it. It is NOT up to men to do it for them without consulting or considering the consequences given the continued problems with sexual harassment in the tech community.

Re: Is this considered creepy in all cultures?

#16

Post by anextio » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 8:46 AM UTC

Loic wrote: post #14

anextio wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what field is it not creepy to have a man keep a documented list of all the women contributors for purely 'curiosity' reasons?

The fact is, in no other fields you would have people thinking about doing this. It is just that they do not care. It is not part of the culture to focus on women from a sexual/stalking point of view. They only care about lack of women in management and engineering positions and the salary difference. Or how to better manage the maternity leaves in the company to keep interesting jobs for the women while potentially…

Oh, okay, I misunderstood. That's fine.

Re: Is this considered creepy in all cultures?

#17

Post by ars » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 8:51 AM UTC

anextio wrote: post #15

ars wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. Couldn't disagree more with that blog. "This Is What A Computer Scientist Looks Like" is exactly the wrong way to "empower". It's a photo. Who cares what you look like? You are a programmer - the only thing I should care about is what your code looks like. > [from the blog] Maybe give them the reigns to make the big decisions and you handle the grunt work. Are you kidding? I should do that because they are femal…

> You should not care what gender, or anything else, they are - except their ability. We don't live in that world. Neither do we live in a world where people of color are afforded the same opportunities as white people even though they have all the same rights. Software (and tech in general) is a toxic and often extremely sexist community towards women. It's easy to take your attitude of "not caring", but that doesn'…

> We don't live in that world.

Online we do. No one can even tell what gender you are unless you tell them. And why tell them? Why should they care?

> If women who are CPAN authors want to organize a community amongst themselves, then it's up to them to decide how they want to go about doing it. It is NOT up to men to do it for them

To me you sound incredibly sexist. (Men do this, Women do that.) Women have their club, Men have theirs.

Sorry, but I don't divide up the world like you do. Who cares who made the list? Are you saying that if a Woman made that list all is well?

Why does the gender of who made the list matter? Shouldn't the only thing that matters be if the person wants to be on the list?

Re: Is this considered creepy in all cultures?

#18

Post by peteretep » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 8:54 AM UTC

Loic wrote: post #14

anextio wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what field is it not creepy to have a man keep a documented list of all the women contributors for purely 'curiosity' reasons?

The fact is, in no other fields you would have people thinking about doing this. It is just that they do not care. It is not part of the culture to focus on women from a sexual/stalking point of view. They only care about lack of women in management and engineering positions and the salary difference. Or how to better manage the maternity leaves in the company to keep interesting jobs for the women while potentially…

I will note purely that CPAN has quite a lot of similar modules categorizing authors by several attributes, most notably country of origin. From that perspective, it's very easy to believe the author acted entirely in good faith and from a non-creepy perspective, without having to invoke the idea that it's some kind of sexual/stalking thing.

Re: Is this considered creepy in all cultures?

#19

Post by Tichy » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 8:56 AM UTC

anextio wrote: post #15

ars wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. Couldn't disagree more with that blog. "This Is What A Computer Scientist Looks Like" is exactly the wrong way to "empower". It's a photo. Who cares what you look like? You are a programmer - the only thing I should care about is what your code looks like. > [from the blog] Maybe give them the reigns to make the big decisions and you handle the grunt work. Are you kidding? I should do that because they are femal…

> You should not care what gender, or anything else, they are - except their ability. We don't live in that world. Neither do we live in a world where people of color are afforded the same opportunities as white people even though they have all the same rights. Software (and tech in general) is a toxic and often extremely sexist community towards women. It's easy to take your attitude of "not caring", but that doesn'…

"Software (and tech in general) is a toxic and often extremely sexist community towards women. "

It really isn't. Maybe you get a distorted view because complaints get a disproportionate amount of attention (much like reports about crimes in the newspapers - most people overestimate the amount of crime happening, at least in Europe). Precisely a reason to deal with those complaints in a sensible way, because people like you already got the wrong impression.

Re: Is this considered creepy in all cultures?

#20

Post by Tichy » Wed, Jul 04, 2012, 8:59 AM UTC

What about Twitter lists? I have created all sorts of lists without asking people first. No "women who do x" lists, but still - the idea was I think people creating lists of people who fall into a common category of their interest.

It doesn't seem so strange that people might be interested in female developers. For all I know, that list could have been compiled by another female developer who wants to feel less lonely.

In another context people will rush to present such lists to entice more women into the field. Also, the argument "there are almost no female developers (in OSS)" is common, so such lists might be handy to answer those arguments.

I was just considering how I would feel about a "black developers" list - sure it is a double edged sword, but I think it could be interesting/valid for the same reasons. People will gather those statistics anyway, and I believe public data should be as accessible as possible.