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Shanghai Before the Foreigners

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Re: Shanghai Before the Foreigners

#11

Post by thaumasiotes »

janalsncm wrote: post #8
Animats wrote: post #6

Here's Shenzhen, before and after tech. Shenzhen really was a fishing village in 1950, and a small town into the 1970s. All the action was in Hong Kong nearby. A local photographer has been taking pictures from the same spots every year since 1985.[1] Population of Shenzhen: 1950 3,000 1960 8,000 1970 22,000 1980 59,000 1990 875,000 2000 7,193,000 2010 10,223,000 2020 12,357,000 [1] https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d3d414…

100x growth in 20 years starting from 1980 is insane. Would’ve been very interesting to witness.

Shenzhen received, in 1980, the special legal privilege of engaging in commerce with Hong Kong. It's not natural growth.

Re: Shanghai Before the Foreigners

#12

Post by thaumasiotes »

bobthepanda wrote: post #7
Kon-Peki wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nanjing, just an hour or so up the river, is multiple thousands of years old and is one of the most important historical cities in Chinese history. So it is really no surprise that Shanghai was not developed until foreign trade became important.

It is also hard to talk about the relatively new coastal development without the fact that in the 1600s the Qing forcibly evacuated most coastal areas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Clearance And before that, the Ming banned coastal trade. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haijin

That's an interesting pair of policies to mention together. The reason for the evacuation of the coast was that coastal trade had flourished so much that the Qing weren't able to defeat one guy's private navy militarily.

Re: Shanghai Before the Foreigners

#13

Post by olalonde »

Animats wrote: post #6

Here's Shenzhen, before and after tech. Shenzhen really was a fishing village in 1950, and a small town into the 1970s. All the action was in Hong Kong nearby. A local photographer has been taking pictures from the same spots every year since 1985.[1] Population of Shenzhen: 1950 3,000 1960 8,000 1970 22,000 1980 59,000 1990 875,000 2000 7,193,000 2010 10,223,000 2020 12,357,000 [1] https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d3d414…

I first visited Shenzhen in 2008 and back then it was almost impossible to find anyone who was actually born in Shenzhen. It's increasingly common nowadays with the younger generation. Also, many Hong Kongers I knew were literally afraid to visit Shenzhen and nowadays, Shenzhen feels more modern and safe than Hong Kong (IMO). It's mind blowing how fast this city grew.

Re: Shanghai Before the Foreigners

#14

Post by bobthepanda »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #12
bobthepanda wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is also hard to talk about the relatively new coastal development without the fact that in the 1600s the Qing forcibly evacuated most coastal areas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Clearance And before that, the Ming banned coastal trade. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haijin

That's an interesting pair of policies to mention together. The reason for the evacuation of the coast was that coastal trade had flourished so much that the Qing weren't able to defeat one guy's private navy militarily.

the Ming policy was never 100% effective and mostly just resulted in a lot of smuggling and piracy. The Qing attempted to get around this by literally forcibly moving everybody.

Re: Shanghai Before the Foreigners

#15

Post by Hilift »

Kon-Peki wrote: post #5
contingencies wrote: post #3

Nice share but after reading the article my existing view that the area of greater Shanghai was an agricultural area without substantial urban development until the opium wars is unchallenged. Nice to see some familiar spots. About 21 years ago I used to go to the Jing'An temple for lunch on weekends and chat with the monks. They had excellent vegetarian food in the temple, and often the monks would buy me lunch. If…

Nanjing, just an hour or so up the river, is multiple thousands of years old and is one of the most important historical cities in Chinese history. So it is really no surprise that Shanghai was not developed until foreign trade became important.

China is a gold mine for archaeology. It seems like every year there are huge discoveries. Like forgotten cities or something. https://www.world-archaeology.com/features/the-lost-world-of...

Re: Shanghai Before the Foreigners

#16

Post by thaumasiotes »

bobthepanda wrote: post #14
thaumasiotes wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an interesting pair of policies to mention together. The reason for the evacuation of the coast was that coastal trade had flourished so much that the Qing weren't able to defeat one guy's private navy militarily.

the Ming policy was never 100% effective and mostly just resulted in a lot of smuggling and piracy. The Qing attempted to get around this by literally forcibly moving everybody.

> the Ming policy was never 100% effective and mostly just resulted in a lot of smuggling and piracy

I don't think this can really be a complete description of the situation. You can't stop smuggling as a phenomenon, because you can't oversee everything that happens everywhere. So, as much as you might wish it would, the law doesn't really apply to random smugglers.

But by the time you're one of the 100 richest men in China, the law certainly does apply to you. A ban on trade that's "less than 100% effective" is more than enough to stop someone from doing so much trade that they become personally more powerful than the court, as long as "less than 100%" still means "more than 0%".

Re: Shanghai Before the Foreigners

#17

Post by asdasdsddd »

jazzyjackson wrote: post #9
Animats wrote: post #6

Here's Shenzhen, before and after tech. Shenzhen really was a fishing village in 1950, and a small town into the 1970s. All the action was in Hong Kong nearby. A local photographer has been taking pictures from the same spots every year since 1985.[1] Population of Shenzhen: 1950 3,000 1960 8,000 1970 22,000 1980 59,000 1990 875,000 2000 7,193,000 2010 10,223,000 2020 12,357,000 [1] https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d3d414…

Bear in mind that the growth of one fishing village involves growing-into aka annexing neighboring villages, I've heard it said "Shenzhen did not start as one village, it started as thousands"

This is a super important point, Chinese city are the equivalent of American MSA's.

Re: Shanghai Before the Foreigners

#18

Post by trhway »

janalsncm wrote: post #8
Animats wrote: post #6

Here's Shenzhen, before and after tech. Shenzhen really was a fishing village in 1950, and a small town into the 1970s. All the action was in Hong Kong nearby. A local photographer has been taking pictures from the same spots every year since 1985.[1] Population of Shenzhen: 1950 3,000 1960 8,000 1970 22,000 1980 59,000 1990 875,000 2000 7,193,000 2010 10,223,000 2020 12,357,000 [1] https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d3d414…

100x growth in 20 years starting from 1980 is insane. Would’ve been very interesting to witness.

the migration during the last decades from rural China into the cities has been the largest population migration in the history (something like 800M people moved). One can imagine how future generations will be learning about great migrations - like that of the Goths and Huns in the 4th century or this migration in China in the 20-21st century and the resulting large scale effects on the history lasting for centuries.

Btw, interesting depiction of Shanghai - exterritorial status of the foreign concessions for example - in 1937 in the movie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eight_Hundred . In the West we sometimes miss that the 2nd Sino-Japanese war can be naturally considered part of the WWII which thus de-facto was already going in the 1937.

Re: Shanghai Before the Foreigners

#19

Post by fuzztester »

Related:

Taipan by James Ckavelk.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai-Pan_(novel)

I had read it some years ago. Interesting depictions of that period, Hong Kong, interactions between the British and Chinese then, and more. Good writing, IMO.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clavell

Excerpt:

>Clavell wanted to write a second novel because "that separates the men from the boys".[21] The money from King Rat enabled him to spend two years researching and then writing what became Tai-Pan (1966). It was a huge best-seller, and Clavell sold the film rights for a sizeable amount (although the film would not be made until 1986).[22]

King Rat was also good.

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