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Teeth as time capsules: Soviet secrets and my dentist grandmother

theguardian.com

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Re: Teeth as time capsules: Soviet secrets and my dentist grandmother

#11

Post by pyrale »

myrmidon wrote: post #10
Moomoomoo309 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've often heard this claim touted - that people hired via DEI initiatives are incompetent or cannot do their job - do you have any statistics showing it? It always sounded to me like an "obvious conclusion" that was never proven, just assumed to be true, but I'm interested to see how the numbers play out, if any exist.

> that people hired via DEI initiatives are incompetent or cannot do their job I think this is a strawman. The argument would be that if you hire for diversity, you are no longer hiring for capability first (which is much harder to refute than the straw-man "all DEI hires are incompetent"). You could make an argument for DEI-hiring being possibly helpful against nepotism, though. Personally, I think that DEI efforts…

> The argument would be that if you hire for diversity, you are no longer hiring for capability first

That claim is also hard to prove in the first place, but apparently people can just peddle it, and expect other people to do the hard work to debunk it.

Usually, whenever you start asking people to justify that claim, you end up with an anecdote or two and, if you point out that anecdotal data don't make a point, personal attacks.

Re: Teeth as time capsules: Soviet secrets and my dentist grandmother

#12

Post by Urist-Green »

throw3638 wrote: post #9
Moomoomoo309 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've often heard this claim touted - that people hired via DEI initiatives are incompetent or cannot do their job - do you have any statistics showing it? It always sounded to me like an "obvious conclusion" that was never proven, just assumed to be true, but I'm interested to see how the numbers play out, if any exist.

Well, president mentioned some time ago "pregnancy flight suits" for fighter jet pilots. I have no data how pregnancy and 10G are compatible. Also there are no physiological differences. So I guess you are right!

The truth is less exciting. The flight suits are for air crew. The air force has a wide array of craft that need plenty of crew on board that will not go through the stresses of fighter combat.

Re: Teeth as time capsules: Soviet secrets and my dentist grandmother

#13

Post by throw3638 »

pyrale wrote: post #11
myrmidon wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that people hired via DEI initiatives are incompetent or cannot do their job I think this is a strawman. The argument would be that if you hire for diversity, you are no longer hiring for capability first (which is much harder to refute than the straw-man "all DEI hires are incompetent"). You could make an argument for DEI-hiring being possibly helpful against nepotism, though. Personally, I think that DEI efforts…

> The argument would be that if you hire for diversity, you are no longer hiring for capability first That claim is also hard to prove in the first place, but apparently people can just peddle it, and expect other people to do the hard work to debunk it. Usually, whenever you start asking people to justify that claim, you end up with an anecdote or two and, if you point out that anecdotal data don't make a point, per…

[flagged]

Re: Teeth as time capsules: Soviet secrets and my dentist grandmother

#14

Post by throw3638 »

Urist-Green wrote: post #12
throw3638 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, president mentioned some time ago "pregnancy flight suits" for fighter jet pilots. I have no data how pregnancy and 10G are compatible. Also there are no physiological differences. So I guess you are right!

The truth is less exciting. The flight suits are for air crew. The air force has a wide array of craft that need plenty of crew on board that will not go through the stresses of fighter combat.

Or more likely they will never get deployed.

Re: Teeth as time capsules: Soviet secrets and my dentist grandmother

#15

Post by sorasoraflora »

pyrale wrote: post #11
myrmidon wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that people hired via DEI initiatives are incompetent or cannot do their job I think this is a strawman. The argument would be that if you hire for diversity, you are no longer hiring for capability first (which is much harder to refute than the straw-man "all DEI hires are incompetent"). You could make an argument for DEI-hiring being possibly helpful against nepotism, though. Personally, I think that DEI efforts…

> The argument would be that if you hire for diversity, you are no longer hiring for capability first That claim is also hard to prove in the first place, but apparently people can just peddle it, and expect other people to do the hard work to debunk it. Usually, whenever you start asking people to justify that claim, you end up with an anecdote or two and, if you point out that anecdotal data don't make a point, per…

That claim seems the more intuitive understanding - if candidates are judged entirely by capability and fit for a role, then background wouldn't factor in. If diversity tips the scales toward a candidate that would have been otherwise passed over then ability is no longer the highest priority. If this understanding is flawed, could you explain how?

Re: Teeth as time capsules: Soviet secrets and my dentist grandmother

#16

Post by supermatt »

watt wrote: post #3
lynx23 wrote: post #2

Rather longwinded personal intro, followed by due to the war, my grandma was allowed to become a dentist without actually going to medical school! YAY! What a horror story.

That explains quite a lot about dentistry in USSR

Clearly you didn't read the article. The grandmother was in Poland.

Re: Teeth as time capsules: Soviet secrets and my dentist grandmother

#17

Post by hotspot_one »

myrmidon wrote: post #10
Moomoomoo309 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've often heard this claim touted - that people hired via DEI initiatives are incompetent or cannot do their job - do you have any statistics showing it? It always sounded to me like an "obvious conclusion" that was never proven, just assumed to be true, but I'm interested to see how the numbers play out, if any exist.

> that people hired via DEI initiatives are incompetent or cannot do their job I think this is a strawman. The argument would be that if you hire for diversity, you are no longer hiring for capability first (which is much harder to refute than the straw-man "all DEI hires are incompetent"). You could make an argument for DEI-hiring being possibly helpful against nepotism, though. Personally, I think that DEI efforts…

> The argument would be that if you hire for diversity, you are no longer hiring for capability first

And a counter-argument is to question the assumptions that:

current hiring practices actually select for capability. See discussions on live coding tests for one example.

In most work, where output requires a team, the output of the team is simply the sum of the capability of the members (i.e. team dynamics/composition/morale do not influence team output).

Re: Teeth as time capsules: Soviet secrets and my dentist grandmother

#18

Post by myrmidon »

pyrale wrote: post #11
myrmidon wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that people hired via DEI initiatives are incompetent or cannot do their job I think this is a strawman. The argument would be that if you hire for diversity, you are no longer hiring for capability first (which is much harder to refute than the straw-man "all DEI hires are incompetent"). You could make an argument for DEI-hiring being possibly helpful against nepotism, though. Personally, I think that DEI efforts…

> The argument would be that if you hire for diversity, you are no longer hiring for capability first That claim is also hard to prove in the first place, but apparently people can just peddle it, and expect other people to do the hard work to debunk it. Usually, whenever you start asking people to justify that claim, you end up with an anecdote or two and, if you point out that anecdotal data don't make a point, per…

Maybe we are just talking past each other.

What I mean by "hiring for diversity" is that the business has some DEI goals, like "more female software devs" and lets those influence its hiring decisions.

As soon as you have gender/race distribution goals that deviate from your candidate stream, you have to make hiring decisions that discriminate against your otherwise "most capable candidate", or you're not gonna reach those goals.

Just making sure that your hiring is not actively racist itself is not something I'm arguing against (and I would not call that "DEI hiring").

Re: Teeth as time capsules: Soviet secrets and my dentist grandmother

#19

Post by pyrale »

myrmidon wrote: post #18
pyrale wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The argument would be that if you hire for diversity, you are no longer hiring for capability first That claim is also hard to prove in the first place, but apparently people can just peddle it, and expect other people to do the hard work to debunk it. Usually, whenever you start asking people to justify that claim, you end up with an anecdote or two and, if you point out that anecdotal data don't make a point, per…

Maybe we are just talking past each other. What I mean by "hiring for diversity" is that the business has some DEI goals, like "more female software devs" and lets those influence its hiring decisions. As soon as you have gender/race distribution goals that deviate from your candidate stream, you have to make hiring decisions that discriminate against your otherwise "most capable candidate", or you're not gonna reach…

> As soon as you have gender/race distribution goals that deviate from your candidate stream, you have to make hiring decisions that discriminate against your otherwise "most capable candidate"

The issue with this logic is that you assume the candidate stream can't be changed/expanded.

An example of a business decision that could be influenced by DEI hiring: rather than doing the usual outreach programs only to the usual universities, you could decide to turn stones that you wouldn't usually turn in order to find people you wouldn't usually find. This has zero impact on the quality of people you hire.

Also, "We only hire the best" is a bullshit catchphrase designed to flatter the ego of fresh grads in order to soften them for comp discussion. What usually happens is that you hire whoever passes an arbitrary bar you've set, and you're content not to have and waste another month in a new interview round before you start your new project.

> Just making sure that your hiring is not actively racist itself is not something I'm arguing against (and I would not call that "DEI hiring").

edit: Unfortunately, it is. e.g. someone created a throwaway account to peddle weird fantasies in answer to this message.

Re: Teeth as time capsules: Soviet secrets and my dentist grandmother

#20

Post by pyrale »

sorasoraflora wrote: post #15
pyrale wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The argument would be that if you hire for diversity, you are no longer hiring for capability first That claim is also hard to prove in the first place, but apparently people can just peddle it, and expect other people to do the hard work to debunk it. Usually, whenever you start asking people to justify that claim, you end up with an anecdote or two and, if you point out that anecdotal data don't make a point, per…

That claim seems the more intuitive understanding - if candidates are judged entirely by capability and fit for a role, then background wouldn't factor in. If diversity tips the scales toward a candidate that would have been otherwise passed over then ability is no longer the highest priority. If this understanding is flawed, could you explain how?

There are more parameters than just changing the evaluation method applied on a fixed pool of candidates.
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