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LLMs, Theory of Mind, and Cheryl's Birthday

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Re: LLMs, Theory of Mind, and Cheryl's Birthday

#11
I think the test is better than many other commenters are giving credit. It reminds me of responses to the river crossing problems. The reason people do tests like this is because we know the answer a priori or can determine the answer. Reasoning tests are about generalization, and this means you have to be able to generalize based on the logic.

So the author knows that the question is spoiled, because they know that the model was trained on wiki. They also tested to see if the model is familiar with the problem in the first place. In fact, you too can confirm this by asking "What is the logic puzzle, Cheryl's birthday?" and they will spit you out the correct answer.

The problem also went viral, so there are even variations of this. That should tell us that the model has not just been trained on it, but that it has seen it in various forms and we know that this increases its ability to generalize and perform the task.

So then we're left with reasoning. How do we understand reasoning? It is the logical steps. But we need to make sure that this is distinct from memorization. So throwing in twists (as people do in the river puzzles) is a way to distinguish memory from logic. That's where these models fail.

People always complain that "oh, but humans can't do it." I refer to this as "proof by self-incompetence." (I also see it claimed when it isn't actually true) But not everybody reasons, and not all the time (trivial cases are when you're asleep or in a coma, but it also includes things like when you're hangry or just dumb). Humans are different from LLMs. LLMs are giving it 100%, every time. "Proof by self-incompetence" is an exact example of this, where the goal is to explain a prior belief. But fitting data is easy, explaining data is hard (von Neumann's Elephant).

There's also a key part that many people are missing in the analysis. The models were explicitly asked to *generalize* the problem.

I'll give some comments about letting them attempt to solve iteratively, but this is often very tricky. I see this with the river crossing puzzles frequently, where there is information leakage passed back to the algo. Asking a followup question like "are you sure" is actually a hint. You typically don't ask that question when it is correct. Though newer models will not always apologize for being wrong, when actually correct, when they are sufficiently trained on that problem. You'll find that in these situations if you run the same prompt (in new clean sessions) multiple times that the variance in the output is very low.

Overall, a good way to catch LLMs in differentiating reasoning from memorization is getting them to show their work, the steps in between. It isn't uncommon for them to get the right answer but have wrong steps, even in math problems. This is always a clear demonstration of memorization rather than reasoning. It is literally the subtly that matters.

I suspect that one of the difficulties in humans analyzing LLMs is that there is no other entity that is capable of performing such feats that does not also have a theory of mind and a world model. But a good analogy might be in facts that you know, but not understanding why they are "the answer." I'm sure there's many people who have memorized complexities for many sorting algos or leet code problems and couldn't derive the answer themselves.

But I really don't understand why we *need* LLMs to reason? A dictionary memorizes things, and so does wikipedia. Their lack in ability to reason does not make them any less marvelous of inventions/tools. But maybe, if we're looking to create intelligent and thinking machines, it isn't as simple as scale. We love simple things, but few things are simple and correct (though far more things are simple and approximately correct).

Re: LLMs, Theory of Mind, and Cheryl's Birthday

#13

Deducing things from the inability of an LLM to answer a specific question seemed doomed by the "it will be able to on the next itteration" principle. It seems like the only way you could systematic chart the weaknesses of an LLM is by having a class of problems that get harder for LLMs at a steep rate, so a small increase in problem complexity requires a significant increase in LLM power.

  > Deducing things from the inability of an LLM to answer a specific question seemed doomed by the "it will be able to on the next itteration" principle.
That's orthogonal.

If we are pointing in the right direction(s) then yes, next iteration could resolve all problems.

If we are not pointing in the right direction(s) then no, next iteration will not resolve these problems.

Given LLMs rapid improvement in regurgitating knowledge from their training data but simultaneously slow improvement in their ability to generalize (such as logic "puzzles"), I think it is naive to assume we're pointed in the right direction. Maybe we're even pointing in mostly the right direction. But why assume we are?

We can continue in the direction we are going while simultaneously considering it might not be well aligned. If we are well aligned, that gives us more confidence and makes gathering funding easier. If we aren't, well it is easier to course correct sooner than later. In either case, you benefit from the analysis.

Understanding why things fail is more important than understanding why things succeed.

Re: LLMs, Theory of Mind, and Cheryl's Birthday

#14
this is an interesting problem but it’s more of a logic problem than a true test of theory of mind. when i think “theory of mind” i think being able to model an external agent with complete knowledge, incentives, and behavior. i would not doubt LLMs have something close to this for humans, almost by accident since they are trained on human outputs.

Re: LLMs, Theory of Mind, and Cheryl's Birthday

#15

The majority of humans in flesh can't solve the problem - so we need alternate measures for judging theory of mind capabilities in LLMs

What about the difference that the human knows what they don't know?

In contrast, the LLM knows nothing, but confidently half regurgitates correlational text that it is seen before.

Re: LLMs, Theory of Mind, and Cheryl's Birthday

#16

The majority of humans in flesh can't solve the problem - so we need alternate measures for judging theory of mind capabilities in LLMs

  > The majority of humans in flesh can't solve the problem
This is a non sequitur.

All humans have the capacity to reason, but not all humans reason. There's a big difference. Hell, even GPT-4o will tell you this.

Here, don't trust me, let's ask GPT about memorization and reasoning

  Prompt: 
  Suppose a LLM is able to get the right answer to a question, but when asked about the steps to arrive at the answer they are not able to provide an accurate solution. Does this tell us anything about a model's ability to reason or its ability to memorize?  What about when it gets the right answer but the explanation would lead to a different answer than the one stated?

  Response:
  These scenarios highlight important aspects of a model's capabilities and limitations regarding reasoning and memorization.  Let's break them down:


  1. **LLM Gets the Right Answer but Can't Explain the Steps:**
    - **Memorization vs. Reasoning:** If a model provides a correct answer without accurately explaining the steps, it might indicate that the model is relying more on memorization rather than understanding or reasoning. The model could have seen similar questions in its training data and learned to associate certain questions with specific answers without truly understanding the underlying principles.
    - **Reasoning Limitations:** This situation suggests that the model may not have a robust ability to reason through the problem-solving process. It highlights a gap between recognizing patterns in data and applying logical reasoning to derive answers.

  2. **LLM Provides Correct Answer but Incorrect Explanation:**
    - **Memorization of Answers:** This might suggest that the model has memorized the answer from similar examples in the training data but does not understand the reasoning process. It could be retrieving an answer that it "knows" is correct without understanding why.
    - **Inconsistent Reasoning Ability:** Giving a correct answer with an explanation that would lead to a different answer indicates inconsistencies in its reasoning ability. It may reflect that the model's internal heuristics for generating explanations are not aligned with the logic used to derive answers.

  In both cases, these issues highlight the challenges in AI related to understanding vs. pattern recognition. While LLMs are excellent at recognizing patterns and retrieving information, their ability to reason logically and consistently can be limited. This differentiation is crucial when evaluating the capabilities of AI models, particularly in contexts where understanding and accurate reasoning are essential.

Re: LLMs, Theory of Mind, and Cheryl's Birthday

#17

I think the test is better than many other commenters are giving credit. It reminds me of responses to the river crossing problems. The reason people do tests like this is because we know the answer a priori or can determine the answer. Reasoning tests are about generalization, and this means you have to be able to generalize based on the logic. So the author knows that the question is spoiled, because they know that…

>I think the test is better than many other commenters are giving credit.

The test is fine. The conclusion drawn from it, not so much. If humans fail your test for x and you're certain humans have x then you're not really testing for x. x may be important to your test for sure but you're testing for something else too. Or maybe humans don't have x after all. Either conclusion is logically consistent at least. It's the middle, "rules for thee but not me" conclusions that are tiring.

Like it's theory of mind. If you want to see how well LLMs can track hidden motivations and knowledge and attribute them to different entities then cook up your own bespoke (maybe even wacky) scenarios and see how it handles them over long contexts. That's how to test for theory of mind. By doing what the other did here, you're introducing a few factors that may derail the output and have nothing to do with ToM.

>Humans are different from LLMs. LLMs are giving it 100%, every time.

I don't know how anyone who uses LLMs extensively can genuinely believe this to be true. I mean i'm not sure what this means ? Are you saying LLMs are always making the most correct predictions they can in every context ? Because that's just blatantly false.

Yes models overfit. Yes you can trick them. No it does not necessarily mean they haven't generalized well enough to solve your "subtle variation". And if people weren't so hellbent on being able to say "aha" to the machine, they would see that.

If you're really interested in seeing how well the model has learnt the underling logic steps why bother with the trickery ? Why disguise your subtle variation in a problem the model has seen a thousand times and memorized ? You can have the same question requiring the same logic but written in a way that doesn't immediately point to an overfit problem (you don't need to worry about if hinting is 'cheating' or not) How is that not a better test of generalization ?

And i'm not saying that the tests with the trickery or subterfuge are useless or to be done away with, just that you are no longer just testing the ability to generalize.

Re: LLMs, Theory of Mind, and Cheryl's Birthday

#18
post #9

A long time ago, I created a version of this challenge called "Cheryl's Murder." My notebook not only solves logical induction problems like "Cheryl's Birthday," but it also generates them. https://github.com/shaungallagher/cheryls-murder/blob/master...

This is awesome, thanks for sharing

Re: LLMs, Theory of Mind, and Cheryl's Birthday

#19
could be an architectual issue with the LLMs because you need to juggle a lot of states just from one statement regarding a big problem. Sort of like if you ask it to write an app like facebook. It would give you a bunch of crap, which is worse.
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