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We need more zero config tools

arne.me

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Re: We need more zero config tools

#11

Post by ulbu »

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #9
kunley wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not always makes sense, especially when the defaults are counterintuitive. Example: I never understood why tmux folks have chosen different key bindings than screen, as their product was meant to replace screen, not to be run like one inside another. But the brain has been wired over the years. Then I am always remapping tmux to ctrl-a. There are also other examples when defaults have been made to satisfy some percei…

I can't speak to specifics of tmux/screen but, generally, one approach to this problem is to pick tools with the defaults you want. If a tool doesn't have good defaults, pick one that does. Sure, you have to be pragmatic about this—if no tool has good defaults, just pick the one with the best (and the best support for configuration...)

so instead of configuring a single tool, produce multiple tools of different configurations?

you need to put those system parameters somewhere.

Re: We need more zero config tools

#12

Post by bpx51 »

Another tool that I can't live without, which requires no configuration at all is fzf, you can easily and (fuzz)yly find files in your system, move into directories, search in your command history, search active processes and kill them and a lot more. Give it a try

Re: We need more zero config tools

#13

Post by kkfx »

Well, zero-config generally means the tool is "modern", meaning it's defaults are current with the current tech/prefs of the most. Does not mean anything else. The issue here is that people tend to customize so they do not like their customization breaks because someone else have made new defaults.

Aside the real "no config", no need to read a manual etc was tempted, historically the most successful who tried it was Microsoft and we know how bad it is...

My take is that yes, we need sane defaults, but also full customization possible, a thing essentially absent in modern software.

Re: We need more zero config tools

#14

Post by vouaobrasil »

I don't mind configuration when the configuration is discoverable through a few menu options. But when you have to crawl through man pages and the options are endless like Vim, it starts to get annoying.

I liked that when I was in my teens because it was cool, but not now. Too boring.

That's why I switched from Vim to VS Code with the Vim plugin. It's sane by default.

Re: We need more zero config tools

#16

Post by lnxg33k1 »

mattlondon wrote: post #4

I know this will be unpopular but I try to live a zero-config life. I just live with the defaults 99% of the time. I prefer not to be beholden to some special keyboard map or shell config or that essential plugin that does something very niche that you could simply not live without any more , because what if you do need to live without it? If you ever change machine or do pair programming or whatever where you are no…

I mean if you spend some time learning some automation tool, like ansible, you can pretty much have a custom setup easily on any laptop, I only modify my local config with ansible, and every time I have a new machine I have all my custom stuff right away

Re: We need more zero config tools

#17

Post by pitah1 »

This was also my philosophy behind creating insta-infra (https://github.com/data-catering/insta-infra). Single command to run any service. No additional thinking required.

Too many times I've become very frustrated when an installation doesn't work the first time or it has some dependencies that you haven't installed (or worse, you have a different version). Then you end up in some deep rabbit hole that you can't dig out from. Now for each tool I make, it must have a quick start with a single command.

Re: We need more zero config tools

#18

Post by lionkor »

I've "riced" Linux machines, Windows machines, different editors, terminals, file browsers, shells, web browsers, even commandline tools, to fully customize my own work machine.

I used to install cool tools, new non-standard programs and made edits to config files.

Now I basically just install Arch (personal machines) or Debian (servers), and leave almost everything at default. I have a handful of necessary tweaks for i3, mostly keybinds (Meta+O for emoji keyboard, a different runner, etc.) which I can reasonably remember, look up, or copy-paste to new machines. I used to have an intricate kickstart.nvim-based neovim setup, but I don't use it anymore.

I like tools which have configs, but I try not to touch them, so I don't have to care about which machine I'm on too much. I can ssh into any Linux or Unix-adjacent machine and just get work done. Visual Studio Code and Zed/Zeditor are wonderful with good defaults, which I don't need to change.

I adjust the font of all my terminals and editors to Fira Code, but that's pretty much it. The defaults are usually sane, and, if they're not, I look for a different program.

This is why I appreciate ArchLinux so much, too; They keep the default configs for most tools, and (almost) only make sane adjustments if any. I've given up on customizing the hell out of my machine(s). If customizing your own machine(s) is your hobby, go for it, but if you want to be productive, consider getting used to default keybinds, default naming, typing out `ls -l` instead of `ll`, and getting the job done. You can own and fully control your machine without exercising this control just because you can, everywhere.

Re: We need more zero config tools

#19

Post by cjk »

mattlondon wrote: post #4

I know this will be unpopular but I try to live a zero-config life. I just live with the defaults 99% of the time. I prefer not to be beholden to some special keyboard map or shell config or that essential plugin that does something very niche that you could simply not live without any more , because what if you do need to live without it? If you ever change machine or do pair programming or whatever where you are no…

I try to do this as well, with the notable exceptions of neovim, zsh, and tmux.

My zsh configuration, despite being quite large, has never broken in strange and hilarious ways when adopting a new version of zsh. The opposite is true for neovim, and to a lesser degree, tmux.

Nearly every time I install a neovim update, something breaks (often LSP-related). The devs don't seem to give a rat's ass about backwards compatibility.

They also introduce silly issues like this[1], which are innocuous but annoying, and are then super pissy with people trying to comment on the issue to add context/etc.

All this to say: I'm definitely in the market for a new editor that has better defaults. Having to ditch my vim muscle memory is non-ideal, though.

[1]: https://github.com/neovim/neovim/issues/28058

Re: We need more zero config tools

#20

Post by BlackFly »

mattlondon wrote: post #4

I know this will be unpopular but I try to live a zero-config life. I just live with the defaults 99% of the time. I prefer not to be beholden to some special keyboard map or shell config or that essential plugin that does something very niche that you could simply not live without any more , because what if you do need to live without it? If you ever change machine or do pair programming or whatever where you are no…

> If you ever change machine or do pair programming or whatever where you are not using your highly-tweaked config, and you are essentially a frustrated jibbering wreck

Not really, for much of the same reasons that I don't lose it when I visit a friend's house and find they stored their utensils in a different location relative to the sink: it is obvious that someone will set things up differently.

Ever help a friend, who being French, has an azerty keyboard? Defaults are also contextual and this is but one example. Heck if you are a windows/linux/mac user who occassionally helps people on another OS you will experience the difference in defaults. Being a touch typer, it was weird the first few times, but it is amazing at how quickly you learn to touch type on an azerty with just helping a friend. I even managed to help people with qwerty keyboards who insisted on using dvorak layouts.

So I don't find your argument for defaults convincing because I find my environment to be already more heterogeneous with respect to defaults than you seem to and modifying configuration is the only way to achieve some level of homogeneity for my own use.

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